joining the traffic pattern quandary

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Well, like I said, you need to apply common sense. Somebody just posted
about this instrument approach:

http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://...00379LDBCA.PDF

Let's say you're coming in from San Marcus. What are you supposed to do
when you reach KOAKS? You make a (gasp) right turn onto final. Surely
you're "approaching to land", since you're flying an approach procedure.
Are you going to worry that the runway may have a left traffic pattern and
therefore 91.126 won't let you make a right turn? Of course not.

You need to apply common sense. If you're going to look for
inconsistencies and stupidities in the FARs, you'll spend your whole life
getting hung up on stuff like this.


§ 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G
airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating
an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area
must comply with the requirements of this section.


If an IAP requires a right turn to the final approach course you're clearly
"otherwise authorized or required".

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating
an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area
must comply with the requirements of this section.


If an IAP requires a right turn to the final approach course you're clearly
"otherwise authorized or required".

True enough. And making a right turn from the 45 to left downwind is
just as clearly required.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

True enough. And making a right turn from the 45 to left downwind is
just as clearly required.


Not so. The IAP requires a right turn, but there is no requirement to make
a 45 degree turn to enter a downwind leg.

Let me make sure I understand this. The FAA wrote the rules, and the FAA
wrote the AIM. Therefore, the FAA must have determined that which is in the
AIM complied with the rules... until the FAA changes it's mind. So sayeth
the FAA. :-)

My understanding is that all of this "advisory" literature (the AIM, the
Advisory Circulars, etc.) are supposed to advise you of a way (but not,
necessarily, the only way) to comply with the regulations. I know of cases
where people have been hauled in for "violations" only to be let off because
they pointed out an advisory that explicitly said that they could do what
they were accused of.

All that being said, I still think the Canadian method (mid-field
crosswinds) is better.

Just my two cents.

-Rob
"Greg Esres" wrote in message
...
So if a RIGHT turn is permitted by the FARs onto downwind, then so
must a RIGHT turn onto final (where left traffic in effect).Hence the
quandary

There is no quandary.

The 45 right-turn entry into downwind is recommended by the AIM and
would not be so if it had ever been held to be illegal.

Once in the pattern, left turns are mandatory unless the stated ground
signals exist, if it's an untowered airport.

What's so hard about this?

then I could do a 90 degree right turn onto short final,
where left pattern is in effect.

No, you couldn't. Pilots have been violated for this and it has been
upheld by the NTSB. You would have to intercept final at a
"considerable" distance from the runway in order to not be "in the
pattern." The distance depends on what type of airplane you're
flying.

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:14:57 -0500, "Rob Montgomery"
wrote:

Let me make sure I understand this. The FAA wrote the rules, and the FAA
wrote the AIM. Therefore, the FAA must have determined that which is in the
AIM complied with the rules... until the FAA changes it's mind. So sayeth
the FAA. :-)


Or, more precisely, one hand of the FAA wrote the rules, while another
hand of the FAA wrote the AIM, and sometimes, the left hand doesn't
know what the right hand is doing.

"Rob Montgomery" wrote in message
...

Let me make sure I understand this. The FAA wrote the rules, and the FAA
wrote the AIM. Therefore, the FAA must have determined that which is in
the AIM complied with the rules... until the FAA changes it's mind. So
sayeth the FAA. :-)


The 45 degree turn to downwind violates the letter of the law regardless
what the FAA sayeth.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
k.net...


The 45 degree turn to downwind violates the letter of the law regardless
what the FAA sayeth.


Which letter of which law?

--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
news

Which letter of which law?


The letter b. FAR 91.126(b) to be specific.

Y'All,
How come no one has considered as one way to make a right 90-degree turn is
to make a left-270. Of course if it were a perfect world everyone would be
left handed and in their right mind.

Was working with a little first grader on her math book last week.
Never realized how many ways the words left and right could be used.
Consider: There are seven birds on a branch. Three left. How
many are left?


Gene Whitt

I think the whole question is a tempest in a teapot. Who is going to cite
the "offending" pilot for making a right turn to enter left traffic from the
45?

Bob Gardner

wrote in message
...
Bob, is AC 90-66a available on line? As it is "advisory", I take it
that it is similar to the aim recommended procedures, but not
regulatory as in FARs?

I was referring to non towered, and where pattern direction was clear,
I'm assuming left for simplicity.

The quandary is, the aim recommends a 45 degree RIGHT turn to join the
pattern, whereas the fars say all turns to the LEFT when approaching
to land.

If it is argued that joining the circuit via the RIGHT turn is
approaching to land, then the AIM is in conflict with the FARs.

If it is argued that joining the circuit via the RIGHT turn is NOT
approaching to land, then is should be permissable to join short final
via a RIGHT turn also. And hence a Right base where left pattern is
in effect would be permissible.

Thus the quandary
Stan

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 16:18:58 -0800, "Bob Gardner"
wrote:

Don't forget Advisory Circular 90-66A when collecting information.

At a Class D airport, you will follow the controller's
instructions....might
utility. And you ignored that part of 91.126 relating to visual
markings and right turns...that's cheating on your part.


Bob Gardner

wrote in message
. ..
Consider the following FARs,
§ 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G
airspace.
b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without
an operating control tower in Class G airspace-
(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to
the left ....

AND
91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.
(a) General. ... each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace
must comply with ... §§91.126 and 91.127.

The question could be asked, how do you join the pattern, since when
attempting same you are obviously "approaching to land at an airport"

Now, AIM 4-3-3. Traffic Patterns Provides some recommendations:

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/aim/Chap4/4-3-1

with "(See FIG 4-3-2)".

Now interestingly, this figure shows a 45 degree right turn to join
the downwind, with the example stating:
"Enter pattern in level flight, abeam the midpoint of the runway."

However, and this is the quandary, the AIM example recommends a
procedure that seems to be against the FAR about left turns when
"approaching to land".

Can it be that joining the pattern is not considered as "approaching
to land", and hence, mandatory left turns are not required?

Because if so, a pilot can be on a RIGHT base, thus join the circuit
turning to final, and thus avoid the whole idea of a left traffic
pattern, and the "all turns to the left when approaching to land" FAR.

Loopholes, anyone?

Stan