Trim settings the same for takeoff and landing?

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:45:15 -0700 (PDT), Invisible dog wrote:

On Apr 21, 11:35*am, Ari wrote:
On 21 Apr 2010 13:08:22 GMT, Bob Moore wrote:

Mark wrote

Because you fly out at 65 kts and land
at the same speed. *The commonality is your airspeed.

Mark, you have failed to consider that in most lightplanes, the TO is
made with FLAPS UP and landings are generally made with FULL FLAPS.
Flaps require a really large trim adjustment, remember the GO-AROUND...
the large trim change required immediately after applying power and raising
the flaps? The difference between TO power and approach power also adds to
this large trim change in propellor driven aircraft.

Bob Moore
ATP CFII
PanAm (retired)

Failed to consider?

You're posting to the next Mxsmanic.
--
A fireside chat not with Ari!http://tr.im/holj
Motto: Live To Spooge It!

Beat it asshole. You are the crossposting, spamming,
post forging, non-pilot who floods this group.

Mark?

Why do you call yourself Invisible Dog?

And Todd?

And Livingston?

And so many more nyms my fingers (Tiger) would /lol/ be numb from
typing?

Why?
--
A fireside chat not with Ari!
http://tr.im/holj
Motto: Live To Spooge It!

On Apr 23, 6:34*pm, Mark wrote:
On Apr 23, 5:53*pm, a wrote:



On Apr 23, 4:34*pm, Mark wrote:

On Apr 23, 7:29*am, a wrote:

On Apr 23, 6:27*am, Mark wrote:

On Apr 22, 11:18*pm, Dave Doe wrote:

In article d19343f7-1c71-49ff-b6ec-b847ddf6bad8
@g23g2000yqn.googlegroups.com, says...

On Apr 21, 4:39*pm, george wrote:
On Apr 22, 1:02*am, " wrote:

On Apr 21, 12:44*am, Dave Doe wrote:

So many variables. **Plane* for starters!

Of course in simulators it will be the same. *He doesnt' fly a plane
where weight and balance issues come to play that affect trim settings
like in my real plane.

Ummm, for starters plane comes in lighter after a flight..... *:-)))

One other thing, I wouldn't have my trim set in the same spot on EVERY
flight either :-))) as you allude above, more variables then just set
trim and take off / land.

I found that I trimmed the aircraft to fly in what ever attitude I
required at that time.
I didn't make a point of examining where the pointer was .

Exactly. In one plane I fly, the white line is pretty much
worn off beyond recognition. ( I find it later after landing)

Where do you set it before first T/O ?

--
Duncan.- Hide quoted text -

There is a white line on the wheel, and I set it
even with the indicator arrow, or...at a "neutral"
position. (in other words, no trim)

Mark

Why would you think the take off mark on the trim wheel sets trim to
neutral (whatever that means)?

Why would you think it doesn't? I think it's clear enough
what neutral means here. The trim is even with the
elevator. Elementary concept.

---
Mark

Oh really? *It depends on how the airplane is rigged. Most are rigged
for effective flight, not effective take off. You'd give away airspeed
if the trim tabs, assuming you have them, are not in trail at cruise.
I can further assure you in some airplanes, my Mooney for example, you
could look at the horizontal stabilizer elevator combination for a
long time and have no idea of the trim setting.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I tell ya what. Rather than me theorizing on why we do
what we do at the academy, I'll call one of my instructors
for a more definitive answer. *No one around tonight, I
already called. *One is rated for jets, a former airline
professional. *And my other one also flys Chinook
helicopters for the Army. *Not having the checklist in
hand I'm really commenting from memory.

---
Mark

I have not flown a 152 or 172 in some time. My training was, and
practice in BFRs is, to use the trim to negate yoke pressure and that
is what I do in the Mooney and among my friends at least the way they
fly their complex singles. Your instructors may do it differently --
if so, I'd encourage you to find different CFIs Take off and climb
speeds in these airplanes is markedly different than climb speeds, and
I don't want to fly a XC holding yoke pressure or adjusting airspeed
rather than trim. Moreover I descend most often at cruise speed, and
would rather trim for that attitude than to spend 20 minutes coming
down at 500 fpm from 11,000 feet holding forward pressure. You may
choose to fly differently. If you're being taught differently see my
'find different' comment above. Start with a badly out of trim
airplane and practice some under-the-hood recovery from unusual
attitude stuff. It's simply adding difficulty.

The Mooney, by the way, does not have trim tabs but can be trimmed.
Other complex singles do have tabs. Set the trim on one for takeoff
then look at the tab. You will likely find it out of trail. If you
bother landing one without adjusting trim from cruise (I don;t know
why you'd bother doing this, but never the less) unless the CG is
close to limits you'll find it close to in trail position if the
airplane is well rigged.

I am a real pilot with a real airplane talking about my approach to
the real practice of committing aviation safely. Others may have
different techniques to trimming an airplane -- mine is not broken, so
I choose not to change it, most especially when the authority quoted
is based on someone's alleged 152/172 experience.

On Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:45:27 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:

Mark, I am a real pilot with a real airplane talking about my approach to
the real practice of committing aviation safely.

Oooh, that was painful.

*lol*
--
A fireside chat not with Ari!
http://tr.im/holj
Motto: Live To Spooge It!

On Apr 23, 7:45*pm, a wrote:
On Apr 23, 6:34*pm, Mark wrote:





On Apr 23, 5:53*pm, a wrote:

On Apr 23, 4:34*pm, Mark wrote:

On Apr 23, 7:29*am, a wrote:

On Apr 23, 6:27*am, Mark wrote:

On Apr 22, 11:18*pm, Dave Doe wrote:

In article d19343f7-1c71-49ff-b6ec-b847ddf6bad8
@g23g2000yqn.googlegroups.com, says....

On Apr 21, 4:39*pm, george wrote:
On Apr 22, 1:02*am, " wrote:

On Apr 21, 12:44*am, Dave Doe wrote:

So many variables. **Plane* for starters!

Of course in simulators it will be the same. *He doesnt' fly a plane
where weight and balance issues come to play that affect trim settings
like in my real plane.

Ummm, for starters plane comes in lighter after a flight.... *:-)))

One other thing, I wouldn't have my trim set in the same spot on EVERY
flight either :-))) as you allude above, more variables then just set
trim and take off / land.

I found that I trimmed the aircraft to fly in what ever attitude I
required at that time.
I didn't make a point of examining where the pointer was ..

Exactly. In one plane I fly, the white line is pretty much
worn off beyond recognition. ( I find it later after landing)

Where do you set it before first T/O ?

--
Duncan.- Hide quoted text -

There is a white line on the wheel, and I set it
even with the indicator arrow, or...at a "neutral"
position. (in other words, no trim)

Mark

Why would you think the take off mark on the trim wheel sets trim to
neutral (whatever that means)?

Why would you think it doesn't? I think it's clear enough
what neutral means here. The trim is even with the
elevator. Elementary concept.

---
Mark

Oh really? *It depends on how the airplane is rigged. Most are rigged
for effective flight, not effective take off. You'd give away airspeed
if the trim tabs, assuming you have them, are not in trail at cruise.
I can further assure you in some airplanes, my Mooney for example, you
could look at the horizontal stabilizer elevator combination for a
long time and have no idea of the trim setting.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I tell ya what. Rather than me theorizing on why we do
what we do at the academy, I'll call one of my instructors
for a more definitive answer. *No one around tonight, I
already called. *One is rated for jets, a former airline
professional. *And my other one also flys Chinook
helicopters for the Army. *Not having the checklist in
hand I'm really commenting from memory.

---
Mark

I have not flown a 152 or 172 in some time. My training was, and
practice in BFRs is, *to use the trim to negate yoke pressure and that
is what I do in the Mooney and among my friends at least the way they
fly their complex singles. Your instructors may do it differently --
if so, I'd encourage you to find different CFIs Take off and climb
speeds in these airplanes is markedly different than climb speeds, and
I don't want to fly a XC holding yoke pressure or adjusting airspeed
rather than trim. Moreover I descend most often at cruise speed, and
would rather trim for that attitude than to spend 20 minutes coming
down at 500 fpm from 11,000 feet holding forward pressure. You may
choose to fly differently. If you're being taught differently see my
'find different' comment above. *Start with a badly out of trim
airplane and practice some under-the-hood recovery from unusual
attitude stuff. It's simply adding difficulty.

The Mooney, by the way, does not have trim tabs but can be trimmed.
Other complex singles do have tabs. Set the trim on one for takeoff
then look at the tab. You will likely find it out of trail. If you
bother landing one without adjusting trim from cruise (I don;t know
why you'd bother doing this, but never the less) unless the CG is
close to limits you'll find it close to in trail position if the
airplane is well rigged.

I am a real pilot with a real airplane talking about my approach to
the real practice of committing aviation safely. Others may have
different techniques to trimming an airplane -- mine is not broken, so
I choose not to change it, most especially when the authority quoted
is based on someone's alleged 152/172 experience.

That's all fine and well. Myself, I don't give out avation advice as
I'm a novice. But I certainly can answer a direct question, that
being, where do I set trim at take-off. I was asked, and I answered.
Shortly after take-off though, obviously we set trim to alleviate
yoke pressure and achieve optimum stability.

By the way, you're being a little condescending. You know,
technically, your claim to having a mooney and being a pilot
is no less alleged than anything I say either. Don't get me
wrong. Personally I believe you, and you sound credible so
I'll respect you as long as you respect me.

I think it's interesting that you have a high performance plane.
Myself, I'd be satisfied with something a cut above a
Cessna, preferably a low wing light sport such as the
Arion lightning or the MySky MS-1.

---
Mark

On Apr 23, 7:58*pm, Ari wrote:
On Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:45:27 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:
Mark, I am a real pilot with a real airplane talking about my approach to
the real practice of committing aviation safely.

Oooh, that was painful.

Rudeness by someone towards me in no way
lessens who I am, but rather brings them down.

But why am I telling you? You're a
Goddamn hopeless, depraved lunatic hated
across the world.

Ok. Carry on.

---
Mark

On Apr 24, 5:06*am, Mark wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:45*pm, a wrote:



On Apr 23, 6:34*pm, Mark wrote:

On Apr 23, 5:53*pm, a wrote:

On Apr 23, 4:34*pm, Mark wrote:

On Apr 23, 7:29*am, a wrote:

On Apr 23, 6:27*am, Mark wrote:

On Apr 22, 11:18*pm, Dave Doe wrote:

In article d19343f7-1c71-49ff-b6ec-b847ddf6bad8
@g23g2000yqn.googlegroups.com, says....

On Apr 21, 4:39*pm, george wrote:
On Apr 22, 1:02*am, " wrote:

On Apr 21, 12:44*am, Dave Doe wrote:

So many variables. **Plane* for starters!

Of course in simulators it will be the same. *He doesnt' fly a plane
where weight and balance issues come to play that affect trim settings
like in my real plane.

Ummm, for starters plane comes in lighter after a flight.... *:-)))

One other thing, I wouldn't have my trim set in the same spot on EVERY
flight either :-))) as you allude above, more variables then just set
trim and take off / land.

I found that I trimmed the aircraft to fly in what ever attitude I
required at that time.
I didn't make a point of examining where the pointer was .

Exactly. In one plane I fly, the white line is pretty much
worn off beyond recognition. ( I find it later after landing)

Where do you set it before first T/O ?

--
Duncan.- Hide quoted text -

There is a white line on the wheel, and I set it
even with the indicator arrow, or...at a "neutral"
position. (in other words, no trim)

Mark

Why would you think the take off mark on the trim wheel sets trim to
neutral (whatever that means)?

Why would you think it doesn't? I think it's clear enough
what neutral means here. The trim is even with the
elevator. Elementary concept.

---
Mark

Oh really? *It depends on how the airplane is rigged. Most are rigged
for effective flight, not effective take off. You'd give away airspeed
if the trim tabs, assuming you have them, are not in trail at cruise.
I can further assure you in some airplanes, my Mooney for example, you
could look at the horizontal stabilizer elevator combination for a
long time and have no idea of the trim setting.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I tell ya what. Rather than me theorizing on why we do
what we do at the academy, I'll call one of my instructors
for a more definitive answer. *No one around tonight, I
already called. *One is rated for jets, a former airline
professional. *And my other one also flys Chinook
helicopters for the Army. *Not having the checklist in
hand I'm really commenting from memory.

---
Mark

I have not flown a 152 or 172 in some time. My training was, and
practice in BFRs is, *to use the trim to negate yoke pressure and that
is what I do in the Mooney and among my friends at least the way they
fly their complex singles. Your instructors may do it differently --
if so, I'd encourage you to find different CFIs Take off and climb
speeds in these airplanes is markedly different than climb speeds, and
I don't want to fly a XC holding yoke pressure or adjusting airspeed
rather than trim. Moreover I descend most often at cruise speed, and
would rather trim for that attitude than to spend 20 minutes coming
down at 500 fpm from 11,000 feet holding forward pressure. You may
choose to fly differently. If you're being taught differently see my
'find different' comment above. *Start with a badly out of trim
airplane and practice some under-the-hood recovery from unusual
attitude stuff. It's simply adding difficulty.

The Mooney, by the way, does not have trim tabs but can be trimmed.
Other complex singles do have tabs. Set the trim on one for takeoff
then look at the tab. You will likely find it out of trail. If you
bother landing one without adjusting trim from cruise (I don;t know
why you'd bother doing this, but never the less) unless the CG is
close to limits you'll find it close to in trail position if the
airplane is well rigged.

I am a real pilot with a real airplane talking about my approach to
the real practice of committing aviation safely. Others may have
different techniques to trimming an airplane -- mine is not broken, so
I choose not to change it, most especially when the authority quoted
is based on someone's alleged 152/172 experience.

That's all fine and well. Myself, I don't give out avation advice as
I'm a novice. But I certainly can answer a direct question, that
being, where do I set trim at take-off. I was asked, and I answered.
Shortly after take-off though, obviously we set trim to alleviate
yoke pressure and achieve optimum stability.

By the way, you're being a little condescending. You know,
technically, your claim to having a mooney and being a pilot
is no less alleged than anything I say either. Don't get me
wrong. Personally I believe you, and you sound credible so
I'll respect you as long as you respect me.

I think it's interesting that you have a high performance plane.
Myself, I'd be satisfied with something a cut above a
Cessna, preferably a low wing light sport such as the
Arion lightning or the MySky MS-1.

---
Mark

My Mooney is a business tool: it's an effective way to visit customers
and clients and offers better door to door time than commercial
carriers for most applications up to about 800 or a 1000 miles,
although I often use it on longer trips for the pleasure of flying. As
such I depend on IFR most of the time, and find weather related
cancellations happening about 8% of the time (icing, embedded
thunderstorms are deal busters forecasted wx below minimums are
rare). Anything less than a complex single would not fit my airplane's
mission and my board of directors agrees with me that the evidence is
a self piloted light twin would not be much, if at all, safer.

I have learned some useful things in this group, and read a huge
amount of crap from pseudo experts. In general if I think someone is
wrong I will tell them so. Whether they believe me is up to them. I
think your trimming ideas are in error and told you why, You can
accept that or not. In any event, a badly or incorrectly trimmed
airplane is a pain in the ass to fly, but in my view costs only
airspeed and increased difficulty in unusual attitude recoveries but
is otherwise not a safety issue.

On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 02:25:42 -0700 (PDT), Mark wrote:

On Apr 23, 7:58*pm, Ari wrote:
On Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:45:27 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:
Mark, I am a real pilot with a real airplane talking about my approach to
the real practice of committing aviation safely.

Oooh, that was painful.

Rudeness by someone towards me in no way
lessens who I am, but rather brings them down.

blah blah blah etc

But why am I telling you?

Because you're a self-absorbed fukknutzoid who can't control himself.

Ok. Carry on.

Roger!
--
A fireside chat not with Ari!
http://tr.im/holj
Motto: Live To Spooge It!

On Apr 24, 10:24*am, Ari wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 02:25:42 -0700 (PDT), Mark wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:58*pm, Ari wrote:
On Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:45:27 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:
Mark, I am a real pilot with a real airplane talking about my approach to
the real practice of committing aviation safely.

Oooh, that was painful.

Rudeness by someone towards me in no way
lessens who I am, but rather brings them down.

blah blah blah etc

But why am I telling you? *

Because I'm a self-absorbed fukknutzoid who can't control myself.

Ok. Carry on.

Roger!
--
A fireside chat not with Ari!http://tr.im/holj
Motto: Live To Spooge It!

While I believe there is an Ari Daniel Silverstein in
Florida, you ain't him, and so your pseudo
bravado across the internet is only possible because
you're a coward hiding behind a keyboard.

An authentic chicken**** you are.

With no compunction to being a cowardly spammer.
Basically, very childlike, and semi-illiterate.

---
Mark

On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 07:44:00 -0700 (PDT), Mark wrote:

On Apr 24, 10:24*am, Ari wrote:
On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 02:25:42 -0700 (PDT), Mark wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:58*pm, Ari wrote:
On Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:45:27 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:
Mark, I am a real pilot with a real airplane talking about my approach to
the real practice of committing aviation safely.

Oooh, that was painful.

Rudeness by someone towards me in no way
lessens who I am, but rather brings them down.

blah blah blah etc

But why am I telling you? *

Because I'm a self-absorbed fukknutzoid who can't control myself.

Ok. Carry on.

Roger!
--
A fireside chat not with Ari!http://tr.im/holj
Motto: Live To Spooge It!

While I believe there is an Ari Daniel Silverstein in
Florida, you ain't him, and so your pseudo
bravado across the internet is only possible because
you're a coward hiding behind a keyboard.

Where exactly is it you live?

What is your last name?

Speaking of cowards....*LOL LOL LOL*

An authentic chicken**** you are.

blah blah fukknutzois bull****...as usual.

With no compunction to being a cowardly spammer.
Basically, very childlike, and semi-illiterate.

Where exactly is it you live?

What is your last name?

Speaking of cowards....*LOL LOL LOL*
--
A fireside chat not with Ari!
http://tr.im/holj
Motto: Live To Spooge It!

"a" wrote in message
...
I think your trimming ideas are in error and told you why, You can
accept that or not. In any event, a badly or incorrectly trimmed
airplane is a pain in the ass to fly, but in my view costs only
airspeed and increased difficulty in unusual attitude recoveries but
is otherwise not a safety issue.

You are wasting your key strokes. Particular individuals are convinced that
MSFS is "realistic" and thus, what they observe about trim in thier video
game must translate to real life.

In a PC simulator, when you change the trim, it changes the mapping between
the stick position and the simulated elevator position as opposed to real
life where the trim changes the forces on the stick. In the game, when you
trim, you MOVE the stick (or yoke) back to the "center" position. In real
life, when you change the trim, you DON"T MOVE the stick (or yoke). Untill
these people recognize these simple, basic facts about the hardware
differences, they will never understand how trim works.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.