On Topic

Is it possible to get a pilot topic going here? For all the criticism of
this guy Max--, the simulation pilot here, at least his posts relate to
aviation, however synthetic. How about we try this, just maybe to get some
on topic comments.

Today, maybe tail-draggers have no legitimate redeeming value, except for
bush piloting, since virtually everyone flies from tarmac to tarmac. But
still, lack of the skill eliminates some planes from the pilots options. The
Citabra, the 170's, 180's, or the smell of dope and gas in an old Champ. The
principal difficulty is in a tricycle, once all three wheels are down solid,
you are done except steering it down the runway. In a tail dragger, relax
and it will swap ends, with devistating results.

In my formative years, I flew safety valve for any number of licensed pilots
trying to transition from try- to tail draggers. A few picked it up with a
dozen or so landings, and a very few never got the hang. Most took about 3-6
hours to gain competence. To go from tail dragger to tri-gear normally took
about two landings. Compare this to 7-9 hours of dual for the beginning
pilot in eithor type. To me, the hardest thing to master before soloing was
the rudder work required to land a tail dragger.

Does this suggest that training should begin in a tail dragger? Would it be
worth the extra effort? Or is the entire topic outdated?

On May 10, 3:06*pm, "birdog" wrote:
Is it possible to get a pilot topic going here? For all the criticism of
this guy Max--, the simulation pilot here, at least his posts relate to
aviation, however synthetic. How about we try this, just maybe to get some
on topic comments.

Today, maybe tail-draggers have no legitimate redeeming value, except for
bush piloting, since virtually everyone flies from tarmac to tarmac. But
still, lack of the skill eliminates some planes from the pilots options. The
Citabra, the 170's, 180's, or the smell of dope and gas in an old Champ. The
principal difficulty is in a tricycle, once all three wheels are down solid,
you are done except steering it down the runway. In a tail dragger, relax
and it will swap ends, with devistating results.

In my formative years, I flew safety valve for any number of licensed pilots
trying to transition from try- to tail draggers. A few picked it up with a
dozen or so landings, and a very few never got the hang. Most took about 3-6
hours to gain competence. To go from tail dragger to tri-gear normally took
about two landings. Compare this to 7-9 hours of dual for the beginning
pilot in eithor type. To me, the hardest thing to master before soloing was
the rudder work required to land a tail dragger.

Does this suggest that training should begin in a tail dragger? Would it be
worth the extra effort? Or is the entire topic outdated?

The topic certainly isn't outdated, expecially for the
Vans RV enthusiasts. My first few flights were in a
J-3 tail dragger, and now I'd like to go back to the tail wheel
in an RV-6, or even a MySky MS-1 painted in nostaglic
retro to resemble a spitfire.

---
Mark

On May 10, 3:06*pm, "birdog" wrote:
Is it possible to get a pilot topic going here? For all the criticism of
this guy Max--, the simulation pilot here, at least his posts relate to
aviation, however synthetic. How about we try this, just maybe to get some
on topic comments.

Today, maybe tail-draggers have no legitimate redeeming value, except for
bush piloting, since virtually everyone flies from tarmac to tarmac. But
still, lack of the skill eliminates some planes from the pilots options. The
Citabra, the 170's, 180's, or the smell of dope and gas in an old Champ. The
principal difficulty is in a tricycle, once all three wheels are down solid,
you are done except steering it down the runway. In a tail dragger, relax
and it will swap ends, with devistating results.

In my formative years, I flew safety valve for any number of licensed pilots
trying to transition from try- to tail draggers. A few picked it up with a
dozen or so landings, and a very few never got the hang. Most took about 3-6
hours to gain competence. To go from tail dragger to tri-gear normally took
about two landings. Compare this to 7-9 hours of dual for the beginning
pilot in eithor type. To me, the hardest thing to master before soloing was
the rudder work required to land a tail dragger.

Does this suggest that training should begin in a tail dragger? Would it be
worth the extra effort? Or is the entire topic outdated?

I saw one like this yesterday parked out back,
except it was blue and white, real sharp.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Van's-RV-6/1577100/M/

---
Mark

birdog writes:

Does this suggest that training should begin in a tail dragger? Would it be
worth the extra effort? Or is the entire topic outdated?

Tail draggers are rare because of the extra skill they require. Starting
training in them would serve little purpose, since the average pilot would
never again have to use those tail-dragger skills. Over time, some things are
best relegated to history and to niche markets.

I think the trend in the future will be towards less and less time spent
training in aircraft different from those that a person intends to pilot.
Airline pilots will train entirely in simulation, and their first flight in a
real aircraft will be their first revenue flight. This is already possible for
some types of training and certification, but not (yet) for ab initio
training.

On May 10, 3:06*pm, "birdog" wrote:
Is it possible to get a pilot topic going here?

Sorry birdog. I'm putting a lock on my computer so
these people that come over to my house can't get
online and come to my groups.

From now on it will just be me using this
computer.

---
Mark

Mxsmanic wrote:
birdog writes:

Does this suggest that training should begin in a tail dragger? Would it be
worth the extra effort? Or is the entire topic outdated?

Tail draggers are rare because of the extra skill they require.

Tail draggers were starting to become somewhat rare because most makers
stopped making them.

This has turned around, e.g, various versions of the Cub and the Champ
are back in production.

The "extra skill they require" is a few hours of training.

For certain types of flying, tail draggers are the best choice.

I think the trend in the future will be towards less and less time spent
training in aircraft different from those that a person intends to pilot.

Nope, most pilots will continue to train in something inexpensive and
transition to something else later.

Do you think the Air Force is going to do primary training in F-22's and
scrap all the trainers?

Airline pilots will train entirely in simulation, and their first flight in a
real aircraft will be their first revenue flight.

This is never going to happen. Keep deluding yourself.

This is already possible for
some types of training and certification, but not (yet) for ab initio
training.

Yeah, for a type rating for a similar airplane.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

writes:

Tail draggers were starting to become somewhat rare because most makers
stopped making them.

Why did they stop making them?

Nope, most pilots will continue to train in something inexpensive and
transition to something else later.

I was thinking mainly of people training for piloting as a career, where
financial limitations are less of a factor.

Do you think the Air Force is going to do primary training in F-22's and
scrap all the trainers?

For transport pilots, I don't think they will use F-22s at all.

This is never going to happen. Keep deluding yourself.

Wait and see. It will happen first in the Third World.

Yeah, for a type rating for a similar airplane.

That wasn't possible before, and now it is. More changes along these lines
will occur in the future.

"birdog" wrote:
Today, maybe tail-draggers have no legitimate redeeming value, except
for bush piloting, since virtually everyone flies from tarmac to
tarmac.

Perhaps one other possible redeeming value might be in emergency landings
on unknown surfaces. I've read accident reports where there were fatalities
when the nose wheel of a plane dug in and the plane flipped.

I'm also curious to know if anyone can give first-hand information on
whether landing on skis or floats is more like landing on conventional gear
or tricycle gear? For several reasons I've assumed that it is more like
landing on tricycle gear, but maybe that is incorrect.

Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:

Tail draggers were starting to become somewhat rare because most makers
stopped making them.

Why did they stop making them?

Why did they stop making cars with tail fins?

Nose gear airplanes became the fashion for GA, with a small number of
tail dragger enthusiasts.

Tail draggers are making a resurgance because of the nostalgia, they tend
to be cheaper to make (and thus sell), and there are situations where a
nose wheel is not really desirable to have.

Nope, most pilots will continue to train in something inexpensive and
transition to something else later.

I was thinking mainly of people training for piloting as a career, where
financial limitations are less of a factor.

Financial limitations are always a factor in everything in real life.

Do you think the Air Force is going to do primary training in F-22's and
scrap all the trainers?

For transport pilots, I don't think they will use F-22s at all.

Non sequitur.

Do you think the Air Force is going to do primary training in anything other
than cheap (by comparison) primary trainers?

This is never going to happen. Keep deluding yourself.

Wait and see. It will happen first in the Third World.

Nope, because such pilots wouldn't be allowed to fly out of the third world
and real simulators that accurately simulate actual flight cost more than
primary trainers.

Yeah, for a type rating for a similar airplane.

That wasn't possible before, and now it is. More changes along these lines
will occur in the future.

Yeah, computers were invented making it possible to build a simulator.

And, FYI, the FAA has been talking about increasing the flight time
requirements for pilots flying paying customers, not decreasing them or
using simulation.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

"birdog" wrote in message
...
Is it possible to get a pilot topic going here? For all the criticism of
this guy Max--, the simulation pilot here, at least his posts relate to
aviation, however synthetic. How about we try this, just maybe to get
some on topic comments.

Today, maybe tail-draggers have no legitimate redeeming value, except for
bush piloting, since virtually everyone flies from tarmac to tarmac. But
still, lack of the skill eliminates some planes from the pilots options.
The Citabra, the 170's, 180's, or the smell of dope and gas in an old
Champ. The principal difficulty is in a tricycle, once all three wheels
are down solid, you are done except steering it down the runway. In a
tail dragger, relax and it will swap ends, with devistating results.

In my formative years, I flew safety valve for any number of licensed
pilots trying to transition from try- to tail draggers. A few picked it
up with a dozen or so landings, and a very few never got the hang. Most
took about 3-6 hours to gain competence. To go from tail dragger to
tri-gear normally took about two landings. Compare this to 7-9 hours of
dual for the beginning pilot in eithor type. To me, the hardest thing to
master before soloing was the rudder work required to land a tail
dragger.

Does this suggest that training should begin in a tail dragger? Would it
be worth the extra effort? Or is the entire topic outdated?

Well, I found it pretty easy to start out in a taildragger - it just seems
to be a big problem from those transitioning from a nosewheel. I suspect
that it's the transition pilots that drive the insurance claims up which
drives the insurance companies to discourage using them for training.

Self fulfilling prophecy, eh?

Personally, I found the flexibility of a taildragger convenient even when
98% of the time I landed on pavement. You can't do wheel landings with
tricycle gear.
--
Geoff (making a trip to look at a taildragger tomorrow) Thorpe
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
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