cost of ownership

The Weiss Family wrote:

My low estimates were about $7000.

Well, my costs break down to about that.

Tiedown - $85.00/month. (was $75.00/month until recently).
Insurance - $1,200/year.
Annual - ~$900.
Maintenance - ~$500/year.
Fuel - ~$20.00/hour.
Engine bank - $7.00/hour.

So, we're over $3,500 a year without flying at all. After that, it depends on how
much you fly. Your figure is about right for about 100 hours of air time per year.

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

if I have extra money I put it in my money market account or stocks, disposable
income is just that - I can do as I want with it.

NW_PILOT wrote:

disposable income? bill gates don't even have disposable income why don't
you try "extra money to spend" instead of disposable income.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
If your needing to justify owning, then you may as well continue renting,
I own
not because I fly xxx hours a year or because owning is cheaper then
renting, I
own because I like to come back to my airplane the way I left it, I own
because
I can get up at any hour of the day and night and go anywhere I want, I
own
because I hate rental junk, I own because there is something special about
having your own personal airplane.

Airplanes are expensive, its not something I would jump into if I didn't
have
the disposable income. make it easy and just use the basics to see if you
can
afford it
insurance 1000$ a year or higher
tiedown 45$ a month or higher
loan payment ???
annual inspection: figure 1000$ (could be allot more)
fuel

if you can pull off the above without having any financial problems then
you
should be ok. if you have to figure it up on paper, then anything else
that
arises will sink you.



The Weiss Family wrote:

I know this has been asked a million times, but I have to ask just one
more
time.
I would love to know your real-world costs of ownership for your fixed
gear
single.
A 172, cherk 180, etc.
I'm trying to figure out how much renting I have to do before it becomes
plausible to own.
Any advice as to insurance, fixed and variable costs, etc.
Thanks

Adam

My low estimates were about $7000.

Then you should do it.
Also, remember that it is "likely" that your aircraft will appreciate in
value. While that isn't guaranteed,and should be treated as a bonus,
it is highly probable.

But the main reason to buy is that it changes your mission profile.
Example - I used to rent, fly around for 90 minutes and land. It was
never worth actually landing anywhere nearby, as my FBO charged 3 hours
minimum if ever the aircraft was out over 3 hours, regardless of how
long it flew.

Now on a weekend, particularly a bad weather one, I'll fly 30 minutes to
an airport where I will land, meet several friends, have coffee and BS
for an hour, then fly toward home for 15 minutes, land and do it again,
then fly home.

Total flight time less than 60 minutes.
Total time - all day.
Total aviation value - priceless.
Total cost - Variable costs $30.00.
Fixed costs I pay whether I fly or not.
So now I fly lots. Like you I agonized over the cost.
Once I bought I kicked myself for not doing it a long time ago.
And as an aside, there is a certain comfort in always finding the plane
as you left it, with your stuff in it, and knowing that it wasn't abused
on its last flight.

My advice is to do it - you'll find many benefits that you hadn't even
considered.

Tony



Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument
Cessna 172H C-GICE

The Weiss Family wrote:

I know this has been asked a million times, but I have to ask just one
more time. I would love to know your real-world costs of ownership for
your fixed gear single. A 172, cherk 180, etc. I'm trying to figure out
how much renting I have to do before it becomes plausible to own. Any
advice as to insurance, fixed and variable costs, etc.

I bought my own airplane in December 2002, so I'm still a fairly new owner.
You've already had lots of good replies about costs, though I'd caution you
that you'll probably need to plan on paying at least double your average
yearly cost the first year, mostly in parts and maintenance: you'll be
flying the plane differently (causing some borderline parts to fail sooner),
you'll have a fresh mechanic looking at the plane, and you'll have different
needs (such as a second nav radio that actually works).

The main point, though, is that there's no point comparing the costs with
renting, because the renting and owning are entirely different. Renting is
for flying local flights, same-day cross-countries (say, to have lunch or
shop in another city a couple of hours away, or visit a friend), and the
occasional overnight trip. Depending on an FBO's policy, longer trips (say,
a week in Florida) are either forbidden or highly inconvenient, requiring
booking weeks in advance (maybe months in advance for the summer) and paying
for a few hours every day when the plane is on the ground.

Owning gives you the freedom to fly where you want, when you want, but also
the responsibility for taking care of the thousands of individual (and
expensive) parts that people screw and rivet together to make airplanes. If
you plan to fly mostly cross-countries, especially longer ones, there's
really no option: you have to own. If you want to be able to decide on
Friday that you're going away for a weekend in the summer, you have to own.
If you want to have some control over the safety of the airplane (say,
using better quality oil hoses that won't melt and start a fire, or
replacing the muffler before the shroud corrodes through and starts sending
CO through the heating system, etc), you have to own.

That said, if you're not going to be flying enough hours to justify sole
ownership, you can go in with a partner or two and massively reduce your
fixed costs. For example, if you're paying $1,000/year parking, $2,000/year
insurance, and $3,000/year parts and maintenance, you can pay all $5,000
yourself, pay $2,500 with one partner, or pay $1,670 with two partners.
Partners can also share the large amount of work involved in owning.

Personally, since I fly an inexpensive plane (a Piper Warrior II) for well
over 120 hours/year I am a sole owner, but I am very open to joining a
partnership if I start flying less often or if I need to move up to a bigger
or faster plane. Just having someone else to take turns cleaning and waxing
the plane sounds like a nice idea ...


All the best,


David

In article , "The Weiss Family"
wrote:

I know this has been asked a million times, but I have to ask just one
more
time.
I would love to know your real-world costs of ownership for your fixed
gear
single.
A 172, cherk 180, etc.
I'm trying to figure out how much renting I have to do before it becomes
plausible to own.
Any advice as to insurance, fixed and variable costs, etc.
Thanks

Adam


I've had my cherokee 140 since 1994. There have been years where
total cost for inspections and repairs for the year were less than
$1000. Most years total cost for inspections and repairs for the year
have been less than $2000.

And then there was the bill for an engine overhaul, coupled with
other problems and "while you are at it"... I stopped keeping track
when the cost passed $23,500. The total was probably a bit higher
than $30,000. For that, everything firewall forward was removed
and overhauled or replaced with new.

And of course there have been panel/radio improvements. I've
replaced both navcoms, overhauled the ADF, added a DME, autopilot,
engine monitor, and strikefinder.

--
Bob Noel

The Weiss Family wrote:
: A 172, cherk 180, etc.
: I'm trying to figure out how much renting I have to do before it becomes
: plausible to own.
: Any advice as to insurance, fixed and variable costs, etc.
: Thanks

As posted by a number of others, there are unquantifiable differences between
renting an owning. Someone said, "Renting is for 90 minute local flights and owning
is for trips." That's probably pretty close to accurate. If you never plan on taking
the plane more places than a quick 1-2 hour flight, renting starts make a lot of
sense. If you plan on taking it on longer trips, it's just not an option, from both
logistics and cost. For example, I flew my Cherokee from SW Virginia to SE Minnesota
over easter. Total, direct costs incurred by the 14 hour, ~1200 nm flight, $250
*round trip*. The rest of the costs are roughly fixed so it encourages flying. If it
were renting (and even possible to take such a trip), it'd be $1000 or more... much
more thought necessary to justify it.

My partners and I do things as inexpensively as possible on the plane. I do
the work under supervision of my A&P. Replace things as necessary, but mostly keep a
close eye on everything (maintainance-wise) all the time so if something goes you know
about it beforehand. If you don't do that, relatively minor expenses can add up
quickly due to incidental damage.

For me, owning means I forget about the fixed costs because I've already paid
for them, and just look at the direct costs of flying somewhere... roughly
$15-$20/hour on cargas. In the area bopping around at 45% power... $10-$15/hour.

-Cory
--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

Thanks Tony,

This is exactly the kind of thing I've been agonizing about, too. Not just
day trips, but what if I want to take a two or three hour trip to see
friends, and then stay for a week?

I don't want to pay a three hour per day minimum for seven days, when the
plane will probably only fly six hours total!

Thanks!

"Bob Noel" wrote:

And then there was the bill for an engine overhaul, coupled with
other problems and "while you are at it"... I stopped keeping track
when the cost passed $23,500. The total was probably a bit higher
than $30,000. For that, everything firewall forward was removed
and overhauled or replaced with new.

Ouch!
I definitely couldn't afford that right away on top of all the other
expenses.
This limits the field of potential aircraft to low-time (or mid-time)
engines.

The Weiss Family wrote:

This is exactly the kind of thing I've been agonizing about, too. Not just
day trips, but what if I want to take a two or three hour trip to see
friends, and then stay for a week?

I don't want to pay a three hour per day minimum for seven days, when the
plane will probably only fly six hours total!

Again, if money is an issue, look at buying your first plane with a partner.
You'll have someone else to share the initial cost, the ongoing work and
fixed expenses, and if your partner is more experienced with planes, you'll
also be able to avoid a lot of the expensive, newbie-owner mistakes that I
(and probably many others) make. If you're at all serious about travelling,
renting isn't a realistic option.

I wasn't able to find a partner around Ottawa when I was first looking (I
cared about IFR and the other people I talked to didn't want to spend the
extra money), and I'm managing OK as a sole owner now, but the first 18
months or so were a little hairy. If you can remember what it was like when
you moved from an apartment to your first house (as owner), and suddenly you
were expected to know about how to deal with contractors, what quotes were
fair, what weeping tiles were, how to grade a lawn, building codes, property
taxes, etc. etc., you'll have a good idea of what it will be like at first
owning a plane -- just multiply all that by 10.

When you're getting close to buying, come back to the list and you'll be
able to find a lot of advice (more than half of it good). Here are a few
easy, generic checklist items for any kind of plane:

1. How much weight can it carry with full fuel? How about with fuel at
tabs? Is that enough for your family now? What about three years from now?
Since you have a family, useful load probably matters more than speed.
Flying with fuel at tabs might not be practical for IFR, with the
requirement for an alternate and extra reserves, so pay close attention to
the full-fuel load if you're an IFR pilot or are likely to become one soon.

2. How many recurring ADs are there for the make/model, and how much do they
cost to carry out? For example, an older Cherokee with a front-mounted oil
cooler will need to have its oil hoses replaced every 8 years, which is only
a couple of hundred dollars; other recurring ADs, however, can cost
thousands. Don't wait until you've already put down a deposit and paying
for a prepurchase inspection to find out about these, since you can easily
research them online from your desk while leafing through Trade-a-Plane.

3. What avionics do you need? It's a *lot* (ie. 50%-75%) cheaper to buy a
plane with the avionics you need already installed than to buy and install
them afterwards. If you fly IFR and think you're going to want a Stormscope,
autopilot, and/or IFR GPS, look at planes that already have those
(personally, all I really wanted for IFR beyond basic NAV/ADF/DME was a
Stormscope, which I had installed last month).

4. How close is the engine to TBO? Most people seem to prefer an engine
that is about 50% of the way along -- that way, any problems from the last
overhaul are already worked out, but you still have a long time until the
next one. The plane's price will be adjusted accordingly.

5. Have fun looking.


All the best,


David

The Weiss Family wrote:

Ouch!
I definitely couldn't afford that right away on top of all the other
expenses.
This limits the field of potential aircraft to low-time (or mid-time)
engines.

Not necessarily -- if the market is working correctly, the difference
between the cost of a plane with a new engine and a plane with a run-out
engine should be about equal to the cost of an overhaul.

From what I've seen on these lists and heard talking to other pilots,
low-time engines can be a bad idea, especially if the previous owner did a
quick, cheapie overhaul to help sell the plane. Doing your own overhaul on
a run-out engine is probably better, but you're assuming the risks of all
the early problems that show up afterwards. I chose mid-time, and I've been
very happy with that.


All the best,


David