cost of ownership

David Megginson writes:

The Weiss Family wrote:

Ouch!
I definitely couldn't afford that right away on top of all the other
expenses.
This limits the field of potential aircraft to low-time (or mid-time)
engines.

Not necessarily -- if the market is working correctly, the difference
between the cost of a plane with a new engine and a plane with a
run-out engine should be about equal to the cost of an overhaul.

From my experience the market isn't working w.r.t. discounting the
price of an airplane with the engine near TBO. When searching for my
airplane, I found two very similar models to the one I eventually
bought, and rejected them both when the owners wouldn't discount their
selling price because of the engine time. I found an airplane with a
low time engine (done by a very well known overhauler) for just
$2000-$3000 more than what the other two wanted.

Bob Fry wrote:

From my experience the market isn't working w.r.t. discounting the
price of an airplane with the engine near TBO. When searching for my
airplane, I found two very similar models to the one I eventually
bought, and rejected them both when the owners wouldn't discount their
selling price because of the engine time.

Presumably, they'd already built the engine time into their selling prices.
Unfortunately, a lot of owners seem to have pretty exaggerated ideas of
what their planes are worth. They probably had to drop their prices
eventually, or else they gave up on trying to sell.


All the best,


David

David is exactly right about finding the right plane, my first plane (a cherokee
180), I ended up putting all kinds of speed mods on it, new avionics, then
decided it was not fast enough so bought my current plane a Turbo Arrow, this
time I got a plane that had things I wanted in it, HSI, airconditioning, some
speed mods, really good interior and paint. I did how ever still spend about 20k
for new garmin 430, audio panel, xponder and AM/FM/CD player for the wife to
listen to on those long trips.

the good thing about owning your own plane is your not restricted to anything
except weather and deciding where you want to go next.

David Megginson wrote:

The Weiss Family wrote:

This is exactly the kind of thing I've been agonizing about, too. Not just
day trips, but what if I want to take a two or three hour trip to see
friends, and then stay for a week?

I don't want to pay a three hour per day minimum for seven days, when the
plane will probably only fly six hours total!

Again, if money is an issue, look at buying your first plane with a partner.
You'll have someone else to share the initial cost, the ongoing work and
fixed expenses, and if your partner is more experienced with planes, you'll
also be able to avoid a lot of the expensive, newbie-owner mistakes that I
(and probably many others) make. If you're at all serious about travelling,
renting isn't a realistic option.

I wasn't able to find a partner around Ottawa when I was first looking (I
cared about IFR and the other people I talked to didn't want to spend the
extra money), and I'm managing OK as a sole owner now, but the first 18
months or so were a little hairy. If you can remember what it was like when
you moved from an apartment to your first house (as owner), and suddenly you
were expected to know about how to deal with contractors, what quotes were
fair, what weeping tiles were, how to grade a lawn, building codes, property
taxes, etc. etc., you'll have a good idea of what it will be like at first
owning a plane -- just multiply all that by 10.

When you're getting close to buying, come back to the list and you'll be
able to find a lot of advice (more than half of it good). Here are a few
easy, generic checklist items for any kind of plane:

1. How much weight can it carry with full fuel? How about with fuel at
tabs? Is that enough for your family now? What about three years from now?
Since you have a family, useful load probably matters more than speed.
Flying with fuel at tabs might not be practical for IFR, with the
requirement for an alternate and extra reserves, so pay close attention to
the full-fuel load if you're an IFR pilot or are likely to become one soon.

2. How many recurring ADs are there for the make/model, and how much do they
cost to carry out? For example, an older Cherokee with a front-mounted oil
cooler will need to have its oil hoses replaced every 8 years, which is only
a couple of hundred dollars; other recurring ADs, however, can cost
thousands. Don't wait until you've already put down a deposit and paying
for a prepurchase inspection to find out about these, since you can easily
research them online from your desk while leafing through Trade-a-Plane.

3. What avionics do you need? It's a *lot* (ie. 50%-75%) cheaper to buy a
plane with the avionics you need already installed than to buy and install
them afterwards. If you fly IFR and think you're going to want a Stormscope,
autopilot, and/or IFR GPS, look at planes that already have those
(personally, all I really wanted for IFR beyond basic NAV/ADF/DME was a
Stormscope, which I had installed last month).

4. How close is the engine to TBO? Most people seem to prefer an engine
that is about 50% of the way along -- that way, any problems from the last
overhaul are already worked out, but you still have a long time until the
next one. The plane's price will be adjusted accordingly.

5. Have fun looking.

All the best,

David

when I bought my current plane, I went after a low time factory reman. engine.
Any engine with over 600 hours on it (I have a 1800 hr TBO on my engine) I would
not even look at, but I was seeing planes with engine at or close to TBO where
the owners wanted the same price as one with a new engine.
when I did the prebuy, I also had an oil analysys done to make sure the engine
was still in good shape.

David Megginson wrote:

The Weiss Family wrote:

Ouch!
I definitely couldn't afford that right away on top of all the other
expenses.
This limits the field of potential aircraft to low-time (or mid-time)
engines.

Not necessarily -- if the market is working correctly, the difference
between the cost of a plane with a new engine and a plane with a run-out
engine should be about equal to the cost of an overhaul.

From what I've seen on these lists and heard talking to other pilots,
low-time engines can be a bad idea, especially if the previous owner did a
quick, cheapie overhaul to help sell the plane. Doing your own overhaul on
a run-out engine is probably better, but you're assuming the risks of all
the early problems that show up afterwards. I chose mid-time, and I've been
very happy with that.

All the best,

David

David Megginson wrote:

Not necessarily -- if the market is working correctly, the difference
between the cost of a plane with a new engine and a plane with a run-out
engine should be about equal to the cost of an overhaul.

My experience from perusing the ads is that the difference in price is about half the
actual overhaul cost.

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
and if you do not want any costs, lease it back to a flight school,
chances
are it will rent enough that it covers all your costs.


If you do a lease-back, what type of insurance must you carry?

I leased back my old 180 for several months, the FBO took care of the
insurance, tie down and maint.
they would give me a monthly check of around 800-1000$ after everything
was paid for.
But it would require commericial insurance and 100 hour inspections. but
as I said, thats not an issue since the rentals actually pay for
everything.

The Weiss Family wrote:

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
and if you do not want any costs, lease it back to a flight school,
chances
are it will rent enough that it covers all your costs.


If you do a lease-back, what type of insurance must you carry?

Jeff wrote:

and if you do not want any costs, lease it back to a flight school, chances
are it will rent enough that it covers all your costs.

Leasing the aircraft is a business venture, and you should treat it as one.
Typically, you will be treated as a renter, even if you own the aircraft. If you want
to fly it, this may be no problem if you take the plane during the week, but you may
have the same problems taking the plane for a weekend that you have today renting
other people's aircraft.

I have known people who made a decent amount of money leasing aircraft to flight
schools. I have also heard of people losing their shirts (or at least, their planes).
Much depends on the terms of the lease contracts. For what little it's worth, from
what I've seen, lessors on the West Coast tend to lose money on the deal.

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
when I bought my current plane, I went after a low time factory reman.
engine.

Which makes no sense as it has a Continental. The last thing I want is
Continental jugs. Chromed Continental cylinders would be OK.

"The Weiss Family" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
and if you do not want any costs, lease it back to a flight school,
chances
are it will rent enough that it covers all your costs.


If you do a lease-back, what type of insurance must you carry?

Forget it. You will never make a leaseback work. Plus it is the same as
renting a plane. You now have to schedule your own damn plane. You would
need commercial insurance. It is at least three times regular insurance.