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#11
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"Richard Hertz" no one@no one.com wrote in message et... "Fred" wrote in message ink.net... Have you ever carefully studied what the regulations actually REQUIRE regarding the various experience requirements for an instrument rating? The XC requirement in particular, is one that oftentimes unnecessarily adds to the cost of an instrument rating and delays getting it. According to the FAA, a pilot who already has a private pilot certificate and is RATED in the airplane, can log PIC time, even while receiving dual instruction. This means that an instrument training XC trip, which is NOT on an instrument flight plan (you don't have an instrument rating yet so you can't file IFR as PIC) but is under the hood with an instructor as safety pilot, can be logged as PIC XC.......so you can make the same time do double duty. Much instrument training is done this way, with the instructor acting as ATC. Most of your instrument training will be hood time. Do it on a XC using instrument navigation procedures and you can save as much as 20-30 hours or more of the additional cost of having to do it over twice. (The rules do not say SOLO XC the rules say PIC XC ) How do you come up with 20 to 30 hours? The rules require 10 hours with an instructor. The rest can be PIC with an instructor as safety pilot. 40-10 = 30. That adds up to 40 hours. Doing cross countries is no place to start learning IFR procedures. You should spend time in a sim beforehand, then make your way to a plane. Your proposal I think is something that most people are aware of. Thanks for the "help." Actually, I find a lot of pilots under the mis-impression that they have to have the 50 hours BEFORE they start the IFR or that the 50 hours has to be separate from the IFR training or in addition to it. I would respectfully disagree that doing cross countries is no place to start learning IFR procedures. I would suggest that cross countries are a very good place to start learning them, to practice them, and to master them because this is what IFR flying is all about, namely using the plane for XC under acceptable weather conditions that are not VFR. Flying IFR is not much different from flying VFR except that you are using the gauges instead of getting confused by looking at all the clutter on the maps and looking outside all the time. IFR charts are easier to read, easier to interpret, and easier to navigate with. You learned how to navigate by pilotage for your private and you learned how to dead reckon, deal with lost procedures etc so you already know how to do this. The next step is to learn to control the plane more precisely and doing it with the slight additional workload of keeping up with your times, etas, etc is not much more, IF you have learned to PLAN properly in the first place....... There is nothing wrong with practicing VFR XC when you feel like it, but if you are interested in getting on with getting your skills up to the highest level, as soon as possible, the sooner you learn the IFR procedures the sooner you can use them and, within limits, I would assert that you will be a safer pilot because of it. An Instrument rating certainly brings your skills to a much higher precision level and the training makes you much more aware of weather, the limitations it imposes, and gives you more latitude in dealing with the problems that weather presents and certainly makes you a more precise pilot. As you gain experience, hopefully your judgment gets better and better. The reason that I like to teach IFR things on an XC is that 1. You have to plan the trip, in advance, very well. This means that you have to think about the trip more, BEFORE you leave the ground, so you can have a low stress, enjoyable flight. This is what you should be doing VFR, but the IFR routine enforces it more. You have to consider the weather, terrain, winds, altitudes, etc a lot more, which you should on a VFR XC also.......but doing it IFR (or IFR under the hood in training) gives you more practice, sooner, rather than later, so you learn these important skills earlier in the game. That translates into thinking about setting up your frequencies ahead of time, setting up your radios ahead of time, and setting up your COURSES ahead of time, so mostly what you have to deal with is waiting for things to happen. i.e. to get to an intersection and change the direction, fly your new heading while maintaining your altitude and wait for the next heading or altitude change. Otherwise, all you have to do is keep the plane right side up, on heading and on altitude, and talk with ATC or your instructor and adhere to your "clearance". 2. The basics of navigation remain the same, except that it is a lot easier to navigate with radios than it is to navigate by DR and pilotage, especially at night, as well as, being generally safer, because, you can get a positive fix from your radios, whereas you often cannot when flying VFR at every second of the flight. When you learn this way, you reduce the overall problem to one of aircraft systems management and because you take things in the order that they happen and learn to expect them, you reduce a complex problem to something that comes in natural stages with a purpose. This all reduces the problem to controlling the airplane within IFR tolerances +/- 100 feet and +/- 10 degrees of heading and you have almost the entire flight to practice this skill, so you get a lot of practice tracking the VOR, intercepting courses, and when you get to the other end, you get to make an approach, which for the most part, is just flying headings and maintaining altitude. You need practice to get your skill level to stay within the altitude and heading tolerances. This is a good place to do it, because you don't have a lot of distractions and it has a purpose....ie.to get you to your destination. Mastering the ability to stay ahead of the airplane means PLANNING.....which means setting up your radios so you stay ahead of the airplane and wait for them to indicate you have reached a checkpoint, so you can do the next thing required. PLANNING is the essence of a stress free IFR flight and I have found that it is most easily learned by doing......which is what IFR flying is all about. When I was working on my instrument rating, I found that instructors usually would go out to teach a subject, such as intercepting a course, maintaining an altitude, flying an ADF course, or just holding heading and altitude, without having another purpose Sure, I knew we were "going to practice IFR under the hood", but it didn't have the same purpose of actually going somewhere and it made it much more difficult for me to understand why each thing was important...so we didn't go through the PLANNING stage which is essential to building IFR skills quickly. When I finally got to the XC stage, I had an additional burden of putting it all together and would continually forget to do things that needed to be done, well ahead of time, because in the incremental way I was taught, the crucial PLANNING OF THE FLIGHT was neglected, because we were really not going anywhere......just out to the VOR across to the ILS and down for an approach. This PLANNING is crucial when learning to fly IFR because you have to learn to stay ahead of the airplane. Going through the steps on an IFR XC gives you a lot more practice, it doesn't hit you so fast, so you have a little more time to get your flight stabilized, and is an overall better way to learn. Also, if you need a break, just tell your instructor and let him fly for a while. (Remember. If you are RATED in the plane and you have agreed that you are PIC in advance, you can still log the time. That's a privilege of being Captain and letting your instructor be your co-pilot, even if he is an instructor. He still can log the time also because he is an instructor. That is one of his privileges.) Another important part of the XC hood work is that you build up some endurance on a 2-3 hour flight. In the beginning, IFR can be tiresome, so you need to build up the endurance. When you do it for real, and are really in the soup, you are in it until you break out. You can't just take the hood off. So you need to build up your endurance. The more practice you get the better you can tolerate it. Last, this actually builds your overall skills very quickly. You might like to read how one pilot did it at http://10day.cjb.net (When the page comes up, wait a moment for the popup which is the story of David Sears, a candidate for the US Air Force Academy who wanted an instrument rating on his resume for his Congressional interview. David did it in 7 days of flying with 3 days when the weather was too bad to fly.). |
#12
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#13
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Teacherjh,
However, you can =not= use this time as the time required under 61.65(d)(1). Huh? That's contrary to any other comment on this I have ever heard. Logged PIC time is exactly what 61.65(d) (1) requires. -- Thomas Borchert (EDDH) |
#14
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What would you say is the best way to prepared for this with out going to
the flight schools classes. ( I live far enough away from there that if I make the trip I might as well go flying, cuz I don't want to do it that often) Apparently AOPA gave my name to Kings Schools and they had a salesman call to see if they could sell me the DVD course. I have been plodding through all the Gliems manuals. Any other ways? The Kings school DVD's are another 1.5 hours of dual, they way I look at it, but if they are super fantastic I guess I'll have to see about getting them. -- Dave A Aging Student Pilot KFRG "gatt" wrote in message ... "C Kingsbury" wrote in message ink.net... In my experience the #1 time-delay comes from getting the written test done. If/when I decide to go for my commercial I'm not going to even start taking lessons until after I've done the written. Doing the same with my private & instrument would have saved me 3 calendar months on each. And in general, the fewer calendar months you spend training, the fewer hours you spend in the airplane fixing things you forgot from previous lessons. INDEED! -c |
#15
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Logged PIC time is exactly what 61.65(d) (1) requires.
Yup, you're right. I was reading the regs with half a brain. It usually works, but this time.I used the wrong half. Jose -- (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address) |
#16
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It depends on what you need. I'm an information sponge and being 28 still have the psychology of test-taking pretty fresh in my mind. All I needed was practice and polishing to get the details right, so I used the Gleim software for both my private and my instrument. It has a "learning" mode where you go through the questions and it gives you an immediate explanation of why your answer was right or wrong. Plus it keeps track of scores, so you can see how you're doing. When you feel ready, it can do a full simulated test session exactly like what you'll see in the test center. I got most of my book learnin' from the Dogan book, and I was overall pleased with it. Anything that the Gleim description or the book didn't make clear I talked over with my instructor, and that took care of it. In the end I got an 82, but by that point I simply wanted to pass and get the damn thing over with as it was holding up my taking the checkride. I've taken enough standardized tests to know what they do and do not measure effectively. Best, -cwk. "Dave" wrote in message news:KWa9d.741$Ua.470@trndny03... What would you say is the best way to prepared for this with out going to the flight schools classes. |
#17
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"Fred" wrote in message link.net... "Richard Hertz" no one@no one.com wrote in message et... "Fred" wrote in message ink.net... Have you ever carefully studied what the regulations actually REQUIRE regarding the various experience requirements for an instrument rating? The XC requirement in particular, is one that oftentimes unnecessarily adds to the cost of an instrument rating and delays getting it. According to the FAA, a pilot who already has a private pilot certificate and is RATED in the airplane, can log PIC time, even while receiving dual instruction. This means that an instrument training XC trip, which is NOT on an instrument flight plan (you don't have an instrument rating yet so you can't file IFR as PIC) but is under the hood with an instructor as safety pilot, can be logged as PIC XC.......so you can make the same time do double duty. Much instrument training is done this way, with the instructor acting as ATC. Most of your instrument training will be hood time. Do it on a XC using instrument navigation procedures and you can save as much as 20-30 hours or more of the additional cost of having to do it over twice. (The rules do not say SOLO XC the rules say PIC XC ) How do you come up with 20 to 30 hours? The rules require 10 hours with an instructor. The rest can be PIC with an instructor as safety pilot. 40-10 = 30. That adds up to 40 hours. So you are saying that you can teach: procedures, holds, approaches, procedures, performance instruments, control instruments, timing, procedures, VOR tracking and interception, procedures, unusual attitudes, partial panel, ILS approaches, procedures, etc all while doing the cross countries? How many students have you taught and how many have taken their checkrides? You find that a small airplane cockpit is an appropriate classroom for teaching IFR flying and procedures (while at the same time the student has to fly and navigate)? I would respectfully suggest that a VFR pilot who is flying cross country and learning how to fly by instruments is a little busy and has little extra processing power to add the additional tasks of learning what IFR flying is about. I certainly agree that the pilot can do cross countries while training, but it is not a good way to introcude concepts and learn. Doing cross countries is no place to start learning IFR procedures. You should spend time in a sim beforehand, then make your way to a plane. Your proposal I think is something that most people are aware of. Thanks for the "help." Actually, I find a lot of pilots under the mis-impression that they have to have the 50 hours BEFORE they start the IFR or that the 50 hours has to be separate from the IFR training or in addition to it. I would respectfully disagree that doing cross countries is no place to start learning IFR procedures. I would suggest that cross countries are a very good place to start learning them, to practice them, and to master them because this is what IFR flying is all about, namely using the plane for XC under acceptable weather conditions that are not VFR. Flying IFR is not much different from flying VFR except that you are using the gauges instead of getting confused by looking at all the clutter on the maps and looking outside all the time. IFR charts are easier to read, easier to interpret, and easier to navigate with. You learned how to navigate by pilotage for your private and you learned how to dead reckon, deal with lost procedures etc so you already know how to do this. The next step is to learn to control the plane more precisely and doing it with the slight additional workload of keeping up with your times, etas, etc is not much more, IF you have learned to PLAN properly in the first place....... There is nothing wrong with practicing VFR XC when you feel like it, but if you are interested in getting on with getting your skills up to the highest level, as soon as possible, the sooner you learn the IFR procedures the sooner you can use them and, within limits, I would assert that you will be a safer pilot because of it. An Instrument rating certainly brings your skills to a much higher precision level and the training makes you much more aware of weather, the limitations it imposes, and gives you more latitude in dealing with the problems that weather presents and certainly makes you a more precise pilot. As you gain experience, hopefully your judgment gets better and better. The reason that I like to teach IFR things on an XC is that 1. You have to plan the trip, in advance, very well. This means that you have to think about the trip more, BEFORE you leave the ground, so you can have a low stress, enjoyable flight. This is what you should be doing VFR, but the IFR routine enforces it more. You have to consider the weather, terrain, winds, altitudes, etc a lot more, which you should on a VFR XC also.......but doing it IFR (or IFR under the hood in training) gives you more practice, sooner, rather than later, so you learn these important skills earlier in the game. That translates into thinking about setting up your frequencies ahead of time, setting up your radios ahead of time, and setting up your COURSES ahead of time, so mostly what you have to deal with is waiting for things to happen. i.e. to get to an intersection and change the direction, fly your new heading while maintaining your altitude and wait for the next heading or altitude change. Otherwise, all you have to do is keep the plane right side up, on heading and on altitude, and talk with ATC or your instructor and adhere to your "clearance". 2. The basics of navigation remain the same, except that it is a lot easier to navigate with radios than it is to navigate by DR and pilotage, especially at night, as well as, being generally safer, because, you can get a positive fix from your radios, whereas you often cannot when flying VFR at every second of the flight. When you learn this way, you reduce the overall problem to one of aircraft systems management and because you take things in the order that they happen and learn to expect them, you reduce a complex problem to something that comes in natural stages with a purpose. This all reduces the problem to controlling the airplane within IFR tolerances +/- 100 feet and +/- 10 degrees of heading and you have almost the entire flight to practice this skill, so you get a lot of practice tracking the VOR, intercepting courses, and when you get to the other end, you get to make an approach, which for the most part, is just flying headings and maintaining altitude. You need practice to get your skill level to stay within the altitude and heading tolerances. This is a good place to do it, because you don't have a lot of distractions and it has a purpose....ie.to get you to your destination. Mastering the ability to stay ahead of the airplane means PLANNING.....which means setting up your radios so you stay ahead of the airplane and wait for them to indicate you have reached a checkpoint, so you can do the next thing required. PLANNING is the essence of a stress free IFR flight and I have found that it is most easily learned by doing......which is what IFR flying is all about. When I was working on my instrument rating, I found that instructors usually would go out to teach a subject, such as intercepting a course, maintaining an altitude, flying an ADF course, or just holding heading and altitude, without having another purpose Sure, I knew we were "going to practice IFR under the hood", but it didn't have the same purpose of actually going somewhere and it made it much more difficult for me to understand why each thing was important...so we didn't go through the PLANNING stage which is essential to building IFR skills quickly. When I finally got to the XC stage, I had an additional burden of putting it all together and would continually forget to do things that needed to be done, well ahead of time, because in the incremental way I was taught, the crucial PLANNING OF THE FLIGHT was neglected, because we were really not going anywhere......just out to the VOR across to the ILS and down for an approach. This PLANNING is crucial when learning to fly IFR because you have to learn to stay ahead of the airplane. Going through the steps on an IFR XC gives you a lot more practice, it doesn't hit you so fast, so you have a little more time to get your flight stabilized, and is an overall better way to learn. Also, if you need a break, just tell your instructor and let him fly for a while. (Remember. If you are RATED in the plane and you have agreed that you are PIC in advance, you can still log the time. That's a privilege of being Captain and letting your instructor be your co-pilot, even if he is an instructor. He still can log the time also because he is an instructor. That is one of his privileges.) Another important part of the XC hood work is that you build up some endurance on a 2-3 hour flight. In the beginning, IFR can be tiresome, so you need to build up the endurance. When you do it for real, and are really in the soup, you are in it until you break out. You can't just take the hood off. So you need to build up your endurance. The more practice you get the better you can tolerate it. Last, this actually builds your overall skills very quickly. You might like to read how one pilot did it at http://10day.cjb.net (When the page comes up, wait a moment for the popup which is the story of David Sears, a candidate for the US Air Force Academy who wanted an instrument rating on his resume for his Congressional interview. David did it in 7 days of flying with 3 days when the weather was too bad to fly.). |
#18
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Buy an IFR prep course/dvd thing (new or on ebay) then sell it on ebay when
you are done. The King one seems to be pretty good about prepping you for the knowledge test if you can make it through their cheesy antics. Re-selling them makes the cost easier to manage. "Dave" wrote in message news:KWa9d.741$Ua.470@trndny03... What would you say is the best way to prepared for this with out going to the flight schools classes. ( I live far enough away from there that if I make the trip I might as well go flying, cuz I don't want to do it that often) Apparently AOPA gave my name to Kings Schools and they had a salesman call to see if they could sell me the DVD course. I have been plodding through all the Gliems manuals. Any other ways? The Kings school DVD's are another 1.5 hours of dual, they way I look at it, but if they are super fantastic I guess I'll have to see about getting them. -- Dave A Aging Student Pilot KFRG "gatt" wrote in message ... "C Kingsbury" wrote in message ink.net... In my experience the #1 time-delay comes from getting the written test done. If/when I decide to go for my commercial I'm not going to even start taking lessons until after I've done the written. Doing the same with my private & instrument would have saved me 3 calendar months on each. And in general, the fewer calendar months you spend training, the fewer hours you spend in the airplane fixing things you forgot from previous lessons. INDEED! -c |
#19
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In rec.aviation.ifr Richard Hertz no one@no one.com wrote:
: So you are saying that you can teach: : procedures, holds, approaches, procedures, performance instruments, control : instruments, timing, procedures, VOR tracking and interception, procedures, : unusual attitudes, partial panel, ILS approaches, procedures, etc all while : doing the cross countries? Cross-countries are mostly straight-and-level (obviously). Very little precision airwork is required. Most of the other stuff can be just as relevant for VFR cross countries if one choses to do so (thorough weather briefings, V-airways, VFR flight following, etc) : You find that a small airplane cockpit is an appropriate classroom for : teaching IFR flying and procedures (while at the same time the student has : to fly and navigate)? I would respectfully suggest that a VFR pilot who is : flying cross country and learning how to fly by instruments is a little busy : and has little extra processing power to add the additional tasks of : learning what IFR flying is about. Absolutely. I would say that a fairly minimal amount of time is necessary to get a VFR pilot's airplane handling up to IFR snuff (~5 hours or so). Just about everything after that is reducing the 98% CPU utilization to do so down to about 5% so that you've got some left over to do everything else that might come up. Knowledge doesn't stick when you're saturated. : I certainly agree that the pilot can do cross countries while training, but : it is not a good way to introcude concepts and learn. Useful to observe, but marginally useful if having them deal with everything required during said cross-country saturates them. -Cory ************************************************** *********************** * Cory Papenfuss * * Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * ************************************************** *********************** |
#20
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Club Cherokee (http://www.clubcherokee.com) at Minneapolis Crystal (KMIC) is
having an open house and pig roast for current and prospective members this Saturday, October 16. We are a nonprofit corporation with 80+ members and seven airplanes. Open house starts at 2PM, free food at 4PM. If you or a friend are interested in checking out the flying club option, we'd like to have you attend. Check our web site for more information on the club and a map. Email george(at)willowlane(dot)net with any questions. To make sure we have enough free food, rsvp to weavertrading(at)att(dot)net. |
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