"Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"

I actually received this comment today from an FSS (US Flight service)
specialist when I called for an IFR flight briefing for a flight from
Boston back to Syracuse, NY, early this afternoon. The Bridgeport FSS
specialist was not joking either. He went on to say that too often pilots
express concerns to him about seeing yellows and reds on the radar when he
knows there is no convection in the area.

Unbelievable. I made the mistake of responding by pointing out that it
certainly is easy to make those comments while sitting safely in a chair in
a building. I then continued by asking him where he was so that I could
stop by his airport, pick him up, and take him for a ride through some
level three returns. His reply was that he already has plenty of hours
doing just that.


--
Peter

He went on to say that too often pilots
express concerns to him about seeing
yellows and reds on the radar when he
knows there is no convection in the area.

This seems quite reasonable to me. A given level of return might be
quite flyable in stratus, but quite something else in convective
conditions.

Mike Granby wrote:

This seems quite reasonable to me. A given level of return might be
quite flyable in stratus, but quite something else in convective
conditions.

Today's activity was the result of a low pressure system just over the
border of the US into Canada that sent a pretty strong cold front marching
across New England. The temperature differences on either side of the cold
front were about 30 degrees F.

Now I am not a meteorologist by trade or university, but I am pretty
confident that the level three and higher returns showing up on radar ahead
of this cold front today were not falling from a stratus layer.

Presumably the FSS specialist was quite aware of the weather maker causing
the rain and should have saved his smart-assed comments for another, more
docile day. This day there were good reasons for a single engine aircraft
to avoid the "non-green colors" on radar, given that the big jets all were
making every effort to do so *and* that convective Sigments were released
for portions of New England while we were en route.

--
Peter

Now I am not a meteorologist by trade or university, but I am pretty
confident that the level three and higher returns showing up on radar ahead
of this cold front today were not falling from a stratus layer.

Don't be so confident. I recall one trip from Destin back to Houston
where I nearly drove a controller who was just as certain as you are
into a conniption fit. It so happened he was wrong too.

I was flying my PA-30, which doesn't have RADAR of any sort (not even
the XM kind) but does have a good Stormscope. I had already deviated
North to avoid an area of convection (the screen was lit up) but headed
West once I was North of the activity. The controller almost did not
allow me to turn West - he insisted I would be flying through an area
of Level II and III returns, with small areas of IV (that's red) in an
area covered by a convective SIGMET. And he was right. However, all
the actual convective activity was now South of me. I flew through
some moderate and even heavy rain - with no turbulence to speak of.
Nothing worse than occasional light chop. I flew in and between
stratus layers. The controller was checking on me every few minutes,
asking if I needed to deviate - because all he had was the RADAR and
the SIGMET.

There really are times when you can have areas of yellow and red, in
conditions that look like they favor convective activity, and in fact
right next to convective activity, which are nonetheless stratiform and
quite comfortable to penetrate. The key is knowing that convection is
not there. Now how one is to know that without a good 'spherics device
is beyond me.

Michael

Michael wrote:

There really are times when you can have areas of yellow and red, in
conditions that look like they favor convective activity, and in fact
right next to convective activity, which are nonetheless stratiform and
quite comfortable to penetrate. The key is knowing that convection is
not there. Now how one is to know that without a good 'spherics device
is beyond me.

While I do see your point (and always have sided with you on your recurring
theme of getting proper utility out of an aircraft), this particular flight
was a return leg of an Angel Flight mission; it was not a mission critical
freight dog flight. I certainly don't see any harm in erring on the side
of caution in wanting to stay clear of level three and higher returns,
especially when there is an advancing cold front in the area.

Whether these particular returns contained destructive turbulence or not
was not something I wanted to test. All of the weather conditions that day
suggested they could be convective and that was enough for me.

Additionally, my point in starting this thread was to question whether it
is really the FSS specialist's job to imply that I am being too
conservative when asking about the colorful radar returns? IMO, absolutely
not.

By the way, I recall one flight a couple of Septembers ago where the red
returns were due to a local radar being set too sensitive for the falling
*wet snow*. In this particular briefing, the FSS specialist was very good.
He didn't imply that I was too concerned about seeing red. Instead, he
investigated my concerns by pulling up the metars from the area, spotted
snow being reported, then concluding that it was a radar sensitivity issue,
not convective activity, that was causing the reds.

--
Peter

Whether these particular returns contained destructive turbulence or not
was not something I wanted to test.

Actually, it's not something you EVER want to test. I inadvertently
penetrated a Level 3 once, and would not willingly do so again. My
point is that if you have reliable static discharge data, it's not
something you're testing. You can't have strong convection with water
droplets without having static discharges. It's just not possible. If
the water is there and the static discharges are not, then there's no
convection and penetration is safe. It's just that simple.

My trip wasn't exactly critical either, and I could have deviated an
extra 30 miles and been outside the convective SIGMET. But what's the
point? Deviating around stratiform cloud with rain? Now without
'sferics, I would certainly have deviated. Or maybe not, if I had live
lightning data piped into my cockpit.

Additionally, my point in starting this thread was to question whether it
is really the FSS specialist's job to imply that I am being too
conservative when asking about the colorful radar returns?

I made no comment on that part of your post. I think you made your
point, it's been discussed, and I have nothing to add to it. No, of
course it's not appropriate - but then you get what you pay for.
Pesonally I prefer a self-briefing with DUATS.

Michael

"Michael" wrote:

There really are times when you can have areas of yellow and red, in
conditions that look like they favor convective activity, and in fact
right next to convective activity, which are nonetheless stratiform and
quite comfortable to penetrate. The key is knowing that convection is
not there. Now how one is to know that without a good 'spherics device
is beyond me.

WxWorx.

Red precip without lightning: http://www.seaerospace.com/garmin/396pic2.jpg

Red precip with lightning: http://www.seaerospace.com/garmin/396pic8.jpg

http://www.seaerospace.com/garmin/396pic9.jpg

It is not real time like 'spherics, but it is timely enough to have tactical
value. I have seen it accurately show lightning where there was not yet any
precip. depicted. I've used it--coincidentally in the Destin area--to
penetrate weather that ATC had warned me about. The little inverted
triangles are METARs that are very useful in verifying the nature of NEXRAD
returns.

Both have their limitations. The optimum situation would be to have
'spherics *and* satellite. Having to choose, I'll take the XM weather
because it does so much more.

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

Dan Luke wrote:

WxWorx.

Red precip without lightning: http://www.seaerospace.com/garmin/396pic2.jpg

Red precip with lightning: http://www.seaerospace.com/garmin/396pic8.jpg

Nice.

WSI downlinked weather displayed on a Garmin MX20 moving map: Will never
display the lightning data now offered by WSI, thanks to the feud between
these two companies.

Between WSI and TIS, I don't know how many more technological dead-ends I
can choose in one lifetime.

--
Peter

On Sun, 21 May 2006 19:17:03 -0400, "Peter R."
wrote:

I actually received this comment today from an FSS (US Flight service)
specialist when I called for an IFR flight briefing for a flight from
Boston back to Syracuse, NY, early this afternoon. The Bridgeport FSS
specialist was not joking either. He went on to say that too often pilots
express concerns to him about seeing yellows and reds on the radar when he
knows there is no convection in the area.

Unbelievable. I made the mistake of responding by pointing out that it
certainly is easy to make those comments while sitting safely in a chair in
a building. I then continued by asking him where he was so that I could
stop by his airport, pick him up, and take him for a ride through some
level three returns. His reply was that he already has plenty of hours
doing just that.

On a flight just a week or two before I was to take the instrument
check ride my instructor had my file a plan from 3BS - MBS VOR - LAN
(ILS) - AMN (NDB) - 3BS (VOR).

The area between MBS and LAN was about 40 to 50 miles of solid yellow
and red. I questioned the wisdom of flying into such things and my
instructor said, "You did get a briefing didn't you?" to which I
replied, "Yes". He asked, "Was there any convective activity in
progress or forecast?"... No there wasn't. Are conditions favorable
for convective activity? No they weren't. ... Any other questions?
At this point he informed me he was just going to be a passenger even
if he was officially PIC.

So, we picked up our clearance and headed into the rain and man did it
rain! Torrential rain, but it was one of the smoothest rides I've
had. Coming back from Lansing (LAN) to Alma (AMN) was one of the most
picturesque rides I've ever had. We were between layers. There were
columns of cloud joining the two layers and individual clouds floating
around in there. The light was almost a fluorescent green or at least
had a strong green cast. It was beautiful.

The approach into Alma was a left turn to the NDB which is 5 miles
west of the field. Then the PT back to the NDB all the while just
skimming the top of the layer while going through the occasional piece
sticking up. The feeling of speed was tremendous. At the NDB we
started the descent into torrential rain. We broke out about 50 feet
above MDA in heavy rain with the runway directly ahead. We went
missed and headed for home.

Suddenly we were back in bright sunshine and MBS approach told us to
expect the visual into Midland (3BS). Unfortunately of fortunately
depending on your view all we could see in the Midland area was more
clouds. So the reply was we'd like to do the VOR-A into 3BS if it was
OK with them. They didn't know it was solid over there.

We had vectors to intercept the approach inbound which made it an easy
one, but again we were very close to minimums and a mile to the east
of the airport it was below minimums which we reported to app.

It was one whale of a nice ride, a good work out, and three different
approaches right down to almost minimums. All this through what I had
expected to be a really rough ride due to those red and yellow
reflections which really are only showing precipitation.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

It isn't so much the level of the return, but the gradient
and attenuation. When Doppler radar is available areas of
turbulence can be directly detected. But conventional radar
must be used as a hint to what may be happening, based on
local knowledge, terrain, prevailing weather and even time
of day.
Any FSS, any ground based reporter or forecaster may be as
brave as they want, but to tell a pilot that they should not
be concerned or "act cowardly" is just plain stupid.

I would recommend that any IFR pilot get the books (and if
possible) take Capt. David Gwinn's course on radar. And
read Capt. Robert Buck's book, Weather Flying.

And FSS persons should explain and teach, rather than dare
and goad.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Roger" wrote in
message ...
| On Sun, 21 May 2006 19:17:03 -0400, "Peter R."

| wrote:
|
| I actually received this comment today from an FSS (US
Flight service)
| specialist when I called for an IFR flight briefing for a
flight from
| Boston back to Syracuse, NY, early this afternoon. The
Bridgeport FSS
| specialist was not joking either. He went on to say that
too often pilots
| express concerns to him about seeing yellows and reds on
the radar when he
| knows there is no convection in the area.
|
| Unbelievable. I made the mistake of responding by
pointing out that it
| certainly is easy to make those comments while sitting
safely in a chair in
| a building. I then continued by asking him where he was
so that I could
| stop by his airport, pick him up, and take him for a ride
through some
| level three returns. His reply was that he already has
plenty of hours
| doing just that.
|
| On a flight just a week or two before I was to take the
instrument
| check ride my instructor had my file a plan from 3BS -
MBS VOR - LAN
| (ILS) - AMN (NDB) - 3BS (VOR).
|
| The area between MBS and LAN was about 40 to 50 miles of
solid yellow
| and red. I questioned the wisdom of flying into such
things and my
| instructor said, "You did get a briefing didn't you?" to
which I
| replied, "Yes". He asked, "Was there any convective
activity in
| progress or forecast?"... No there wasn't. Are conditions
favorable
| for convective activity? No they weren't. ... Any other
questions?
| At this point he informed me he was just going to be a
passenger even
| if he was officially PIC.
|
| So, we picked up our clearance and headed into the rain
and man did it
| rain! Torrential rain, but it was one of the smoothest
rides I've
| had. Coming back from Lansing (LAN) to Alma (AMN) was one
of the most
| picturesque rides I've ever had. We were between layers.
There were
| columns of cloud joining the two layers and individual
clouds floating
| around in there. The light was almost a fluorescent green
or at least
| had a strong green cast. It was beautiful.
|
| The approach into Alma was a left turn to the NDB which is
5 miles
| west of the field. Then the PT back to the NDB all the
while just
| skimming the top of the layer while going through the
occasional piece
| sticking up. The feeling of speed was tremendous. At the
NDB we
| started the descent into torrential rain. We broke out
about 50 feet
| above MDA in heavy rain with the runway directly ahead.
We went
| missed and headed for home.
|
| Suddenly we were back in bright sunshine and MBS approach
told us to
| expect the visual into Midland (3BS). Unfortunately of
fortunately
| depending on your view all we could see in the Midland
area was more
| clouds. So the reply was we'd like to do the VOR-A into
3BS if it was
| OK with them. They didn't know it was solid over there.
|
| We had vectors to intercept the approach inbound which
made it an easy
| one, but again we were very close to minimums and a mile
to the east
| of the airport it was below minimums which we reported to
app.
|
| It was one whale of a nice ride, a good work out, and
three different
| approaches right down to almost minimums. All this
through what I had
| expected to be a really rough ride due to those red and
yellow
| reflections which really are only showing precipitation.
|
| Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
| (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
| www.rogerhalstead.com