"position & hold" going away

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

A lot of time? I don't see it. Unless the hold line is way back from the
runway, I can typically taxi onto the active and be rolling at full
throttle in 10 seconds or less. All they need to do is clear me for
takeoff when the airplane that just landed is 10 seconds or so from
clearing the runway and no time at all will be lost.



How long do you think it takes a heavy to do the same?



The one's I've flown take maybe 20-30 seconds. So, you just lead them a
little more while the landing airplane is rolling out. I don't think
this is any less safe then P&H. I didn't mind P&H in my Skylane as I
could see out the back windows enough to tell if someone was going to
land on me. However, in the Arrow I now fly, you are blind towards the
rear.


Matt

Blueskies wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ...

Robert M. Gary wrote:

That's hard to believe. P&H really saves a lot of time when the runway
is really busy. The only way I can see this working is if pilot learn
how to do "cleared for immediate takeoff". Most controllers avoid this
because "immediate" for many pilots means sitting on the runway while
they go through their last checklist.

A lot of time? I don't see it. Unless the hold line is way back from the runway, I can typically taxi onto the
active and be rolling at full throttle in 10 seconds or less. All they need to do is clear me for takeoff when the
airplane that just landed is 10 seconds or so from clearing the runway and no time at all will be lost.

Matt


Don't think takeoff clearance can be made when there is still an aircraft on the runway...



That can be changed also.


Matt

Blueskies wrote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ...

Robert M. Gary wrote:

That's hard to believe. P&H really saves a lot of time when the runway
is really busy. The only way I can see this working is if pilot learn
how to do "cleared for immediate takeoff". Most controllers avoid this
because "immediate" for many pilots means sitting on the runway while
they go through their last checklist.

A lot of time? I don't see it. Unless the hold line is way back from the runway, I can typically taxi onto the
active and be rolling at full throttle in 10 seconds or less. All they need to do is clear me for takeoff when the
airplane that just landed is 10 seconds or so from clearing the runway and no time at all will be lost.

Matt


Don't think takeoff clearance can be made when there is still an aircraft on the runway...

Sure there can. The only requirement is that that other aircraft be off
the runway before you get on it and start your takeoff roll. It's
called anticipated separation and applies to any separation standard.
As long as the separation is there when it's needed all the rest is
irrelavant.

" Blueskies" wrote in message
. ..

Don't think takeoff clearance can be made when there is still an aircraft
on the runway...



FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control

Chapter 3. Airport Traffic Control-- Terminal

Section 9. Departure Procedures and Separation

3-9-5. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION

Takeoff clearance needs not be withheld until prescribed separation exists
if there is a reasonable assurance it will exist when the aircraft starts
takeoff roll.

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

The one's I've flown take maybe 20-30 seconds. So, you just lead them a
little more while the landing airplane is rolling out.


Lead them a little more? You mean delay the takeoff clearance a little
more, don't you?



I don't think this is any less safe then P&H.


The problem with P&H is not in holding aircraft on a runway, it's in
clearing other aircraft to land while aircraft are holding in position on
the runway. The solution is simple; stop clearing aircraft to land when
aircraft are holding in position.

Something I heard on the radio a few months ago while overflying KCMA:

PLANE: Camarillo Tower, Cessna 123 at runway... uh... twenty six.
TOWER: Cessna 123, say your intentions.
PLANE: I'd like to take off.
TOWER: Cessna 123, position and hold, runway two six.
PLANE: Um, I'm at runway two six.
TOWER: Roger, position and hold on runway two six.
PLANE: Well, my position is runway two six, and I don't understand what
you mean.
TOWER: Confirm, Cessna 123, you're at runway two six and you're NOT on
the runway?
PLANE: Yeah, and I'm holding my position here.
TOWER: Drive onto the runway and hold your position, Cessna 123.
PLANE: (pilot keys transmit button, but there's a long silence as he
tries to wrap his head around the instruction
until.....................huh?
TOWER: (pause, teeth gnashing sounds inserted by my imagination.)
Cessna 123, cleared for takeoff, runway two six.
PLANE: Cleared for takeoff, Cessna 123......(five second pause, then he
keys up again).....oh, and I'm departing to the right.

Sometimes, I think that radio conversations like this are staged for
the benefit of making nearby student pilots feel better about their
radio work.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Dave S" wrote in message
nk.net...

Yea.. just think of all the near collisions it will avoid!



How many?


Up to ALL of them on the runway? In theory, of course, :P

Dave

Roger wrote:



And if it doesn't work out the plane on final does a go around.
Couple of times I've been cleared to land and heard, Thirty Three
Romeo, go around, aircraft on the runway!".

The identified problem is because the controller forgets about the
aircraft in position and lets the aircraft land over the top of the one
on the runway.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

" Blueskies" wrote in message
. ..

Don't think takeoff clearance can be made when there is still an aircraft
on the runway...



FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control

Chapter 3. Airport Traffic Control-- Terminal

Section 9. Departure Procedures and Separation

3-9-5. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION

Takeoff clearance needs not be withheld until prescribed separation exists
if there is a reasonable assurance it will exist when the aircraft starts
takeoff roll.


Thanks!

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

The one's I've flown take maybe 20-30 seconds. So, you just lead them a
little more while the landing airplane is rolling out.



Lead them a little more? You mean delay the takeoff clearance a little
more, don't you?

No, I meant give the takeoff clearance a little sooner while the
aircraft that just landed is still going down the runway heading for the
taxiway. This would have the same advantage as P&H in most circumstances.


I don't think this is any less safe then P&H.



The problem with P&H is not in holding aircraft on a runway, it's in
clearing other aircraft to land while aircraft are holding in position on
the runway. The solution is simple; stop clearing aircraft to land when
aircraft are holding in position.

Yes, that works also, but then what is the point of P&H if not to get
more throughput per active runway?

Matt