Vectored past the localizer

Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?

"Doug" wrote in message
om...

Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?


While it may or may not be safe, there's no question that it's not legal.
Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC
instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised. The
controller may be bringing you through the localizer for spacing. He's
supposed to tell you if he's doing that, but the freq's just as busy for him
as it is for you. You may need to prompt him about joining the localizer,
but, of course, the freq's just as busy for you as it is for him.

Bad idea. Probably 90% of the time it is O.K., but the other 10% is reason
not to.

I have had many times when controllers have purposefully vectored me through
the localizer and then back on from the other side due to spacing on
traffic. You mentioned that this was happening when the freq was busy.
This is probably also the time when spacing on other traffic could be a
factor.

John Bell
www.cockpitgps.com


"Doug" wrote in message
om...
Several times, while under IFR flight plan and radar services, I have
been vectored to intercept the localizer and the controller was late
in turning me into the localizer. This usually happens when I need
about a 90 degree turn to the localizer. I have decided not to wait
for his vector and just turn. This has always been when the freq is
busy. There is a very small time window to turn (about 15 seconds), so
if the freq is busy, I can't request a turn before I am past, so now,
if this happens, I just turn. I told a CFII this and he said, ok, but
its not really the legal thing to do. I believe it is the safe thing
to do, and therefore legal. Any opinions from the group?

In article , John Bell wrote:

Bad idea. Probably 90% of the time it is O.K., but the other 10% is reason
not to.

However, I read somewhere that the controller must specifically mention
if they intend to vector you across the localizer. I conclude this is either
incorrect or widely ignored, because the times I've been vectored through
the localizer, no one said anything. I haven't noticed a lot of radio traffic,
either, but they might be talking on another frequency....

Can one of our ATC folks comment on my ill-remembered "fact?"

Mike Beede

In article ,
Mike Beede wrote:

In article , John Bell
wrote:

Bad idea. Probably 90% of the time it is O.K., but the other 10% is reason
not to.

However, I read somewhere that the controller must specifically mention
if they intend to vector you across the localizer. I conclude this is either
incorrect or widely ignored, because the times I've been vectored through
the localizer, no one said anything. I haven't noticed a lot of radio
traffic,
either, but they might be talking on another frequency....

Can one of our ATC folks comment on my ill-remembered "fact?"

Mike Beede

The controller is indeed supposed to tell you if he's planning to vector
you through the localizer. As you've noticed, it's often not done.
This relatively minor transgression on the controller's part, however,
does not justify your deciding to turn to intercept the localizer
without a clearance.

"Mike Beede" wrote in message
...

However, I read somewhere that the controller must specifically mention
if they intend to vector you across the localizer. I conclude this is
either
incorrect or widely ignored, because the times I've been vectored through
the localizer, no one said anything. I haven't noticed a lot of radio
traffic,
either, but they might be talking on another frequency....

Can one of our ATC folks comment on my ill-remembered "fact?"


FAA Order 7110.65N Air Traffic Control

Chapter 5. Radar

Section 9. Radar Arrivals

5-9-3. VECTORS ACROSS FINAL APPROACH COURSE

Inform the aircraft whenever a vector will take it across the final approach
course and state the reason for such action.

NOTE-
In the event you are unable to so inform the aircraft, the pilot is not
expected to turn inbound on the final approach course unless approach
clearance has been issued.

PHRASEOLOGY-
EXPECT VECTORS ACROSS FINAL FOR (purpose).

EXAMPLE-
"EXPECT VECTORS ACROSS FINAL FOR SPACING."

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Final Approach Course Interception, Para 5-9-2.

Mike Beede wrote:

However, I read somewhere that the controller must specifically mention
if they intend to vector you across the localizer. I conclude this is either
incorrect or widely ignored, because the times I've been vectored through
the localizer, no one said anything. I haven't noticed a lot of radio traffic,
either, but they might be talking on another frequency....

Can one of our ATC folks comment on my ill-remembered "fact?"


Controllers are required to tell you when you are going to be vectored
across the localizer. If they don't you are required to ask.

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 03:32:32 GMT, Newps wrote:

Controllers are required to tell you when you are going to be vectored
across the localizer. If they don't you are required to ask.

Well, if the pilot thought the clearance was in error, he should ask. But
other than that, where does it say that the pilot is *required* to ask the
controller if he finds he is being vectored across the FAC without being
specifically told that by ATC?




Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 03:32:32 GMT, Newps wrote:



Mike Beede wrote:

However, I read somewhere that the controller must specifically mention
if they intend to vector you across the localizer. I conclude this is either
incorrect or widely ignored, because the times I've been vectored through
the localizer, no one said anything. I haven't noticed a lot of radio traffic,
either, but they might be talking on another frequency....

Can one of our ATC folks comment on my ill-remembered "fact?"


Controllers are required to tell you when you are going to be vectored
across the localizer. If they don't you are required to ask.

Never mind, I just found 5-4-3b1b.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...

Never mind, I just found 5-4-3b1b.


AIM 5-4-3.b.1.(b) states; "If approach course crossing is imminent and the
pilot has not been informed that the aircraft will be vectored across the
final approach course, the pilot should query the controller." It does not
say "the pilot is required to query the controller" or "the pilot must query
the controller". Even if it did, the AIM itself says it's nonregulatory.