Cost Savings for PPL

Hi Barry,

It is part of my mistake. I did not make a comparison with other
school. I thought all school have standart step by step lesson. Like I
said AOPA really open my eyes, before I spent more money i will check a
couple schools so I can invest wiselly. I have Gleims FAA test prep and
also Gleim's PTS. They are all good book but I heard from my school
that ASA is the one that FAA used. I might need to buy ASA book. I also
purchased the VFR and IFR pilot communication training software. Very
effective training tools, but again I can not compare with the actuall
comm, since I never really use it in the real world.
I prefer not to put the school name in here, dont get me wrong, they
are all super nice and proffesional, its just the training schedule
that i have questions about. I cant really say that this is a good
school or not since i cant really compare with anything. I'll stop by
to a couple school this weekend and than I can do some comparison.



B A R R Y wrote:
oscarm wrote:
Because the
requirements from FAA is only minimum of 40 combine hours, and I dont
see any standart curriculum.

The closest thing to a "standard curriculum" is the FAA's "Practical
Test Standards" (PTS), which is the document containing the _minimum_
standards you will be judged on when you take check rides or flight
reviews. You can buy your own copy at most flight schools for about $7,
or you can ask to read one at the school.

School syllabuses and instructional materials are commercial products,
sold by private companies, like Jeppesen. Is there a brand name on your
books?

Have you actually asked other live, local pilots about your school's
reputation? You know, walk up to some of them, in person, and TALK to
them about your school and other local schools? Can you post the name
of the school here?


I think trying to get any school to teach you things in a different
order based on what you (as a ~2 hour student) think is correct is
silly, since right now you really don't know enough to know what you
don't know.

Hi Allen,

Thank you for your respond.
I will try to type it into a word document. Perhaps you can help to
customized the program or at least you can give a good input. It wont
work if I scan it since the copy is not very clear
Do you have a yahoo messenger? perhaps we can disscuss this over there.
I am afraid that the training program is a confidential for them
eventhougt they never told me that. I am very exited to joint the pilot
club.
Are you an instructor?


Allen wrote:
"oscarm" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi TF,

That is true flying is a real enjoyment, and its been my dream for a
long time. AOPA is a really good websides, i learned a lot from that
webside and actually open my eyes. I made a mistake choosing schools
without doing some research. I believe if I follow the school program,
it will take me 22 hours hoobs time until I get to pre solo 1 and 2.
and about 1 hour ground brieving before each flying lesson. Ground
school is separate.
Is there a standart program from FAA, or each flying school actually
set up their own program. Can I ask my instructur to teach me the radio
communication on the thirth flight instead of the 20th? Because the
requirements from FAA is only minimum of 40 combine hours, and I dont
see any standart curriculum.

Thank you TF

You need to run (not walk, RUN) away from that school as fast as you can.
Each school can establish it's own syllabus but it must meet FAA minimum
criteria to be approved. The Cessna FAR 141 approved training syllabus has
you soloing on flight lesson ten, (not necessarily the tenth flight, some
lessons may take more than one flight to complete) and radio procedures from
flight lesson one. I would like to see a copy of the school's syllabus you
are with.

Allen

Jack Cunniff wrote:
Learning at an airport in a Class E airspace (which we call a UNICOM
field, because it doesn't have a tower) has the advantage of doing more
flying and less talking on the radio.

I'm not so sure about this. I fly out of a towered (Class D) field, and I
find I spend *less* time on the radio there than I do at untowered fields.
It took me a while to get used to talking on the CTAF, because there are
so many more calls to make.

I did some pattern work tonight -- 17 times around. I probably had about
22 transmissions. At an untowered field, it'd have been over 70 to do the
same work.

.... Alan

--
Alan Gerber
gerber AT panix DOT com

oscarm wrote:
: HI Jack,

: Thanks for your respond. you went soloed after jsut spent 7 hours, wow
: thats a record so far i know. I dont think the program at my flying
: school is set up that way. But 7 hours is too low for me, I am not
: confident to do it in only 7 hours. I gave my self max of 13 hours, but
: 30 hours is seems way to much. Perhaps a $3000 budget is to low in
: california and i dont mind paying more as long as they dont take an
: advantage. 2 hours slow flight introduction i think that a little to
: much. You are right about Class E airspace, can be a disadvantage also.
: Thank you for your input, its really helps and I will defiinitely sign
: up with AOPA.

I'll agree with what's already been said.... RUN away from the school requiring 30 hours before solo. The funny thing
about earning the PPL is that the regulations look completely black and white... 10 hours of this, 3 hours of that, this many
dual cross countries, this many solo, etc... The point you need to realize is that these number are the established *minimums*
required for the license. The actual amount required is completely determined by how long it takes you to learn how to do
everything. Ten hours at a non-towered field for solo sounds pretty reasonable for most people, but some people might take
30 hours before they get the basics required for solo flight learned.

My suggestion is as others have suggested. Try finding another CFI in the area and a plane you you can rent they can
instruct in. My guess is that $3000 will be too low for learning in California no matter how you cut it. If you're looking
for ways to save money and flight time, try "double-dipping" the required hours. For instance, if you're going on a
cross-country, land at a towered field and do your 3 solo T&L there then. If you're on your last dual cross-country, see if
you can get some of the enroute time under the hood for instrument practice. Not everyone can absorb this much info so it may
not work for you, but it's a way to keep the hours down if you can.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

Cory Papenfuss wrote:
Ten hours at a
non-towered field for solo sounds pretty reasonable for most people,
but some people might take 30 hours before they get the basics
required for solo flight learned.

The national average for time-to--solo is currently about 17 hours.
As the 'required items before solo' continue to increase, doing it
in 10 hours is not reasonable. If one is a 'true teacher', and by
that, I mean...demonstrate, teach, evaluate... each of those 15
required items, 13-14 hours is a more reasonable estimate.

For example, an instructor must decide for each day's lesson, what is
the one or two things that the student will go home with, having truly
'learned', not just demonstrated.

If a student is allowed to attempt a landing during the first lesson
as the OP was, he will go home remembering nothing else, as we can
see in the his post.

A new student shows up for his first flight lesson having just passed
the knowledge test....what do I want him to go home KNOWING how to do:

1. PREFLIGHT...In the preflight briefing, explain each item on the list.
At the airplane, point-out each item using the checklist. Then
require the student to conduct a preflight using the checklist. If
you can do this in less than 30 minutes, you are a better man than I.
2. ENGINE START...Demonstrate the Pre-Start Checklist...Or! Just let the
student go through the checklist himself and you correct his
mistakes... ****-poor instructing technique. Demonstrate...help the
student the second time and then require the student to do it
correctly the third time through. Right!!! 3 engine starts.
Now.....he knows how to start the engine!. Maybe 20 min.
3. TAXI...Left/Right turns, stopping in a straight line, locked
brake turns, getting on and staying on the centerline. All of this is
not as easy for a beginner as we think, they try to steer with the yoke
and stop with just the right rudder/brake pedal just as in an
automobile. Make them taxi with their hands on their legs to break the
automobile habits.
4. ENGINE RUN-UP....Use checklist in the briefing room during the preflight
briefing without the sound of the engine running. In the run-up area,
demonstrate a proper run-up and then assist the student to do one.
5. TAKEOFF RUN...After a thorough preflight discussion of engine, propellor
and wind effects on the takeoff run, conduct at least two runs down the
runway with no intention of becoming airborne. If a student is faced
with the anxiety of becoming airborne for the first time, he will not
retain anything about what his feet were doing the the takeoff run.
6. AND FINALLY....Just one trip around the pattern with the student being
talked through the takeoff and initial climb but then becoming just a
passenger for the remainder of the pattern and landing. Do not send
him home frustrated because he didn't make a good landing on his first
flight

It takes a very good student to fully grasp the first five items above and
feel good about himself.

From FAR 61:

(d) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a single-
engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for a single-
engine airplane rating or privileges must receive and log flight training
for the following maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning and
preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;

(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;

(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;

(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;

(5) Climbs and climbing turns;

(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure procedures;

(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence
avoidance;

(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag
configurations;

(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;

(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations
with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery
from a full stall;

(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;

(12) Ground reference maneuvers;

(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;

(14) Slips to a landing; and

(15) Go-arounds.


Bob Moore
CFIing for 35 years