Why did Bush join the national guard?

From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 9/5/2004 4:03 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 9/5/2004 1:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...
Thomas J. Paladino Jr. wrote:

And for the record, when a proposal was floated to send F102s to
Vietnam,
Bush put his name in as a volunteer, however the powers that be decided
not
to use the plane.

For the same record, when he first applied for flying training, he
indicated on
his application that he did NOT desire an overseas assignment.

Duh. He was in a National Guard unit. He could have put a big smiley face in
the other block and it would have made no difference. His duty assignment
was already set in concrete--he was going to return to his unit, the same
one that sent him to flight school in the first place. You are incapable of
understanding the differences between ANG and active component operations,
aren't you?


And he had only
300 flying hours in the F-102 when he volunteered for overseas duty after
he had
been told that they wouldn't consider anybody with less than 500 hours.

Nope, he first asked about Palace Alert, and was *then* told they were then
using the 500 hour limit; you have it all basackwards, as usual.

It was
a pretty safe thing to do.....asking for something you knew in advance
they
weren't going to give you.

Wrong again. You have been told this before, so I guess your continued use
of this tack is just your usual dishonest nature coming through
again...Palace Alert did not maintain a set-in-concrete 500 hour experience
requirement. The required experience level fluctuated based upon the pool of
volunteers they then had--which is why later, as the program wound down, a
mere junior LT found himself flying Palace Alert duty out of Iceland and
participating in one of the USAF's last F-102 intercepts of a Soviet
aircraft.


That's just for the record, of course.

Then your records are all screwed up.

Brooks


George Z.




We are talking about military flying. A subject in which you have no
experience
whatever and therefore no right to comment.




Arthur Kramer

It's an off topic anti Bush rant started by YOU. It has nothing to do with
military aviation so you have no right to tell others they can't comment.

I don't get the impression you are trying to change anyone's mind. You are
obviously posting for your own jollies. Tell me, do you masturbate when you
spew this stuff?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

ubject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: (B2431)
Date: 9/5/2004 3:45 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

From: "Bob Coe"

snip

You signed-up to ride
around in an airplane at the governments expense, take the cash, and the
heated barracks, and lay around like a ****ing queen, while real men fought.

Bob, that was uncalled for. Whatever else Art is he did serve in real combat
in
the air. It was nothing like the ground war I experienced in Viet Nam, but it
was war.

No need to stoop to his level.

Besides, not all AAF crews slept in barracks, many stayed in unheated tents.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


Unheated tents all the way including the bitter cold winter of 1944-45 outside
Bastogne. Note that Coe never fought at all. Just like a neocon. The cowards
attack the soldiers.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ubject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
Date: 9/5/2004 3:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: et


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

It wasn't an opinion. Anybody that knows anything about the Martin B-26
knows it had the lowest loss rate. But don't take my word for it, look it
up yourself. Any B-26 reference will show it.


You are confusing losses in combat and losses in training.


I'm not confusing anything. Obviously you're no expert on the B-26. Why,
you're just a wannabe!


Neocon logic.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: (B2431)
Date: 9/5/2004 3:41 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 9/5/2004 3:56 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 9/5/2004 1:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...
Jack G wrote:
OK Art, tell that to a combat Marine - face to face. If all that
happens is
he asks you where you fought - and then laughs in your face when you
tell
him you will be a very lucky man.
Jack G.

Just for the record, Jack, during WWII, the 8th Air Force sustained more
casualties over Europe than the entire United States Marine Corps did
world-wide
throughout the entire war. If you don't believe me, just ask Google the
right
questions and they'll provide the same answer that I just did....I know
because
I've already done it.

You must have done it wrong. "Half of the U.S. Army Air Forces' casualties
in World War II were suffered by Eighth Air Force (more than 47,000
casualties with more than 26,000 dead)."
(http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...y/usaf/8af.htm )

USMC casualties for the war totalled some ninety thousand, out of some 669K
who served in the USMC. Last I heard 90K was more than 47K. True, more 8th
AF personnel *died* in combat than Marines, but that is not what you said.

Your use of "casualty" is normally inclusive of wounded, deaths due to
other
than combat causes, and MIA.

Brooks


George Z.




And exactly what is your combat experience wannabee? Marines? Air Corps? A
desk
in the states? Anything at all?




Arthur Kramer

I get it now, being a passenger on a B-26 makes you an expert on WW2
casualties
and an expert on all things 8th AF? Get over yourself, art, the facts and
figures in print are derived from official records.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired



The guys who wrote the records weren't there. And neither were you..



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote

Neocon logic.

What's a neocon?

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: (B2431)
Date: 9/5/2004 3:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 9/5/2004 2:26 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 9/5/2004 11:52 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

ArtKramr wrote:

How come you didn't join the Marines and volunteer for the Pacific?


The Army Air Corps was a tougher outift that took higher losses.

When you joined this was not only uncertain, but being touted as highly
unlikely, so don't give us this line of crap about joining because you knew
where the toughest action was going to be. The USAAF may have taken more
caualties in gross numbers, but the USMC in the Pacific had a much higher
percentage rate. Do a google on Tarawa.


BUFDRVR


Get back to me after you have fought in a real war. You are all ****ed up.
The
Army AIr Corps had the highest percentage But you fought in neither the AAC
or
the Mairnes. so what the hell do you know about anything?

.
Arthur Kramer


You weren't in the AAC either, art. It went out of business in 1941. You were
in the USAAF.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


Bull****. I have in front of me my report of separation of service dated 16
August 1946 and under Branch it is clearly marked Army Air Corps. Can't you
get anything right?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote

The guys who wrote the records weren't there. And neither were you..

How do you know? Did you falsify the records? Give them ****
in the report?

"ArtKramr" wrote

Note that Coe never fought at all. Just like a neocon.

How would you know? What's a neocon?

Subject: Why did Bush join the national guard?
From: (B2431)
Date: 9/5/2004 4:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

From: "Kevin Brooks"
Date: 9/5/2004 3:18 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:


"George Z. Bush"

snip the usual george z manure

That's just for the record, of course.

Then your records are all screwed up.

Brooks


First thing you have to understand is george z is a manure salesman with a
mouthful of samples. The second thing is he was never in the military and has
never bothered to figure out how the military actually works.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


I think Geoirge Z flew C-47's in WW II as a troop carrier pilot. It's about
time you told us what you did instead of attacking everyone while you conceal
your great combat experiences. You get more like Bush every day.

..
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

He has the same combat record as you do. ZERO !




Arthur Kramer


Art, what on earth does that have to do with anything? Just because you went
along for a ride on combat missions and dropped a few bombs doesn't make your
opinions any more valid than anyone else's especially since you think your
combat is the most important historical event since Adam and Eve.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


It makes my opinion far more valid than anyone who never flew a mission
including you.

You know, Art, I respect all who served their country. I haven't been
in the military but, as one of the protected. I respect my protectors-
all of them.

It's a little unseemly how you feel that your actions at least 58 years
ago somehow make your opinions on battle more worthy than others. You
flew in a plane and risked your life. I respect that fact but it just
doesn't make your opinon worth any more than anyone else. I can read
accounts of battle and I have heard plenty of vets tell me about what
they did in battle. My father served in WWII. He graduated as a
pharmacist in 1942 so, surprisingly, knowing how the military works,
the Navy assigned him to work in a hospital in Idaho. Considering how
many died and were injured, I'm glad of that because, if he hadn't had
such light duty, I might not be here. The point is, though, he was
doing the job his government asked him to do and did it to the best of
his ability. My Dad was a peaceful man and I just can't see him
shooting a gun at someone or dropping a bomb on them so I guess it was
lucky he was more valuable as a medic than as a warrior. I know that he
would have been a warrior if he was asked to do so but I'm afraid he
would have been better pushing pills than pulling triggers.

The point is that he did his part. He opinion about battle is no more
nor less valuable than yours.

raoul