We Are All Spaniards

"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...
In article yCf9c.106480$_w.1340711@attbi_s53, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Personally, I'd just as soon hunker down behind our oceans, and tell
them
all to get screwed -- but I don't think that works anymore. I just
don't
see a viable alternative to Don's scenario, Dan.

we have to continue the search for a viable approach. Experience
has shown that installing puppet governments isn't good, experience
has shown that trying to buy goodwill or safety doesn't work
(e.g., North Korea), and our experience with letting dangers
develop in other nations unchecked leads to attacks within the US.
But we can't give up. We must find solutions.

Workable solutions, not politically popular or expedient solutions.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:kRf9c.106292$Cb.1307989@attbi_s51...
we have to continue the search for a viable approach. Experience
has shown that installing puppet governments isn't good, experience
has shown that trying to buy goodwill or safety doesn't work
(e.g., North Korea), and our experience with letting dangers
develop in other nations unchecked leads to attacks within the US.
But we can't give up. We must find solutions.

Well, we established "puppet governments" in Germany and Japan -- and
*they*
seem to be doing okay.

I think the trick is to plant the seeds of freedom, and then carefully,
slowly get the hell out of the way.

Those seeds have got to be philospohical, not financial or political.

People like having the vote, and the power to change things. Democracy
can
be -- and should be -- contagious.

It is, but without a proper foundation it just institutionalizes the same
(in this case) Dark Ages mentality under a new name. Note how the old Soviet
Union is running headlong back to the old Stalinist "good old days".

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:yCf9c.106480$_w.1340711@attbi_s53...
The idea that we can barge around the world installing puppet
governments by force and thereby create a secure situation for ourselves
is lunacy.

Well, we've seen what happens when the Islamo-fascists are allowed to set
up
a government without any outside interference. Can you say "Taliban?"

Their radical religious beliefs dictate a society that is diametrically
opposed to freedom and democracy. Worse, they feel it is their duty to
assimilate -- or destroy -- non-believers.

Can you say "The Borg?"

Can you say "suicidal"?

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...
"Jay Honeck" wrote:
I just don't see a viable alternative to Don's scenario, Dan.

So because we don't perceive a simple answer, we should pursue a policy
that history has already proven to be a failure? Have we forgotten the
Soviet experience in Afghanistan? Don's simplistic scenario belongs in
a Tom Clancy novel; it's fantasy.


How much have our proposed solutions in many areas been conditioned by
Hollyweird?

"Jay Honeck" wrote:
Well, we established "puppet governments" in Germany and Japan
-- and *they* seem to be doing okay.

People keep bringing those situations up as models, but they are not
analogous to the situation in Iraq or Afghanistan. In Germany, the
population faced the alternative of absorbtion by the Soviet Union;
pretty easy choice to make. In Japan, there was already a well
disciplined, homogenous population obedient to the emperor, and he
cooperated with our aims. In neither Germany and Japan were there
multiple, imbedded groups of armed, organized opponents to the
installed regimes, with worldwide networks of financial and logistical
support.

I think the trick is to plant the seeds of freedom, and then
carefully, slowly get the hell out of the way.

That is our intent in Iraq. My prediction is that it will not work.
More likely, one of two scenarios will eventuate: 1) We will declare
success and withdraw and the government we installed will quickly be
toppled or 2) we will be stuck for years propping up an ever more
corrupt and unpopular puppet regime, mired in a no-win struggle with
terrorists and gerrillas. I'm praying I'm wrong about this, but history
speaks pretty plainly about what we can expect.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote:

How much have our proposed solutions in many areas been
conditioned by Hollyweird?

Lot's of 'em. Americans believe what they see in the movies.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote:
Yeah!! Look at how our puppet governments in S. Korea, Japan
and Germany turned on us.

We installed a puppet gov't in S. Korea?

I pointed out to Jay some reasons why the situations in Japan and
Germany are not analogous to our situation WRT Iraq. In neither case
was there any organized, armed internal opposition.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

"Doug Carter" wrote in message
...
Paul Sengupta wrote:
In India, it's quite easy for a normal middle class family to employ:
1) A driver
2) Someone to look after the kids
3) A maid to cook and clean.

This would be pretty unthinkable for someone in the US. Food and
restaurants are much cheaper, but luxury goods are on a par.

Seems to imply that either the U.S. middle class elects to
spend more of their
income on material goods (leaving less for servents) or
India has cheaper
servents (lower underclass).

In talking with some computer types from India, Ed Yourdon was told "I can
get a dishwasher for $25". Yourdon was appalled, thinking he was talking
about an appliance until the fellow said that was someone to do the dishes.

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote:

How much have our proposed solutions in many areas been
conditioned by Hollyweird?

Lot's of 'em. Americans believe what they see in the movies.

Yup, including the notion that the intelligence services information is nice
and clean, just like in the 007 movies.

A better perspective would be the story of Cmdr. Joe Rochefort and the Navy
breaking the Japanese codes just prior to the battle of Midway.

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote:
Yeah!! Look at how our puppet governments in S. Korea, Japan
and Germany turned on us.

We installed a puppet gov't in S. Korea?

Are we installing a puppet government in Iraq? What's your definition of a
"puppet government"?

I pointed out to Jay some reasons why the situations in Japan and
Germany are not analogous to our situation WRT Iraq. In neither case
was there any organized, armed internal opposition.

Did we install puppets in Germany? Sure we did. As for armed opposition, not
in Japan, who accepted the decree of the Emperor, but in Germany there was.
In Iraq, the Iraqi's will have take on the opposition.