Blue Ridge Crash

Can anyone from VA confirm what may have happened to Dr. Schneller,
more than just a "rope break".

www2.wsls.com/news/2011/apr/11/virginia-tech-professor-killed-craig-
county-glider-ar-964634/

Condolenses and best wishes to all Meir's family and friends.

Originally Posted by Karen

Can anyone from VA confirm what may have happened to Dr. Schneller,
more than just a "rope break".

www2.wsls.com/news/2011/apr/11/virginia-tech-professor-killed-craig-
county-glider-ar-964634/

Condolenses and best wishes to all Meir's family and friends.

Always sad to hear of such incidents, we are reading about too many glider fatalities these days.

Condolences to the family.

Walt

On Apr 11, 8:19*pm, Karen wrote:
Can anyone from VA confirm what may have happened to Dr. Schneller,
more than just a "rope break".



Story I got was that the L-33 took off with spoilers open. Glider was
wallowing on tow .. rolling left and right.....Rope broke.... glider
nose up.....and glider did stall / spin from about 400'.

Some say he ws "signalling" for more airspeed, some say just
wallowing.

L-33 has very powerful spoilers....



Cookie

Originally Posted by

On Apr 11, 8:19*pm, Karen wrote:
Can anyone from VA confirm what may have happened to Dr. Schneller,
more than just a "rope break".



Story I got was that the L-33 took off with spoilers open. Glider was
wallowing on tow .. rolling left and right.....Rope broke.... glider
nose up.....and glider did stall / spin from about 400'.

Some say he ws "signalling" for more airspeed, some say just
wallowing.

L-33 has very powerful spoilers....



Cookie

Wow Cookie, an avoidable accident for sure. Still it is incumbent upon all of us to help reduce or eliminate these situations. When I am the wing runner, unless a pilot tells me he is taking off with partial spoilers I try to insure that they are closed and that the tail dolly is off among other things. We see this all too often. While it is ultimately the pilot's error, the tow pilot might have caught this in his mirror before take off, the wing runner might have noted them open. All involved have a duty to call things to a halt when something isn't right. Not pointing the finger at anyone but the more sets of eyes the better. It will be impossible to completely eliminate all potential problems but we must all do what we can to reduce them. Checklist anyone? Condolences to the family and friends.

Walt

Walt

On Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:45:21 +0000, Walt Connelly wrote:

When I am the
wing runner, unless a pilot tells me he is taking off with partial
spoilers I try to insure that they are closed and that the tail dolly
is off among other things.

I agree that the tail dolly is easily spottable by wing runner, etc., but
this doesn't necessarily apply to airbrakes. If they are unlocked, on
many gliders they'll be flush with the wing surface so that neither wing
runner or tow pilot can tell whether they are locked or not and will suck
open during the launch.

In my club we use the CBSIFTCBE check where the Brakes item requires the
pilot to open the brakes fully, check for equal extension, do the same
for half brake, and then close and lock them. This, by itself, is a
pretty good assurance that they'll be locked but the pilot can still get
interrupted while he's doing checks and forget 'brakes', so this season
the winch cable hooker-onner has instructions not to put the cable on
unless the pilot explicitly says "Brakes locked: cable on, please" and to
prompt the pilot if he doesn't report brakes locked.

This procedure also makes sense for aero tow.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Originally Posted by Martin Gregorie[_5_]

On Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:45:21 +0000, Walt Connelly wrote:

When I am the
wing runner, unless a pilot tells me he is taking off with partial
spoilers I try to insure that they are closed and that the tail dolly
is off among other things.

I agree that the tail dolly is easily spottable by wing runner, etc., but
this doesn't necessarily apply to airbrakes. If they are unlocked, on
many gliders they'll be flush with the wing surface so that neither wing
runner or tow pilot can tell whether they are locked or not and will suck
open during the launch.

In my club we use the CBSIFTCBE check where the Brakes item requires the
pilot to open the brakes fully, check for equal extension, do the same
for half brake, and then close and lock them. This, by itself, is a
pretty good assurance that they'll be locked but the pilot can still get
interrupted while he's doing checks and forget 'brakes', so this season
the winch cable hooker-onner has instructions not to put the cable on
unless the pilot explicitly says "Brakes locked: cable on, please" and to
prompt the pilot if he doesn't report brakes locked.

This procedure also makes sense for aero tow.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Good point, well taken. While the brakes can suck open if not locked, the wing runner visual inspection is only part of the safety sequence. Still I have seen people give me the thumbs up while the spoilers were clearly open. The requirement to have the pilot specifically state "brakes locked, cable on please," is a good one. The more we can do to eliminate errors the better.

Walt

On Apr 13, 7:06*am, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
'Martin Gregorie[_5_ Wrote:





;768541']On Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:45:21 +0000, Walt Connelly wrote:
-
When I am the
wing runner, unless a pilot tells me he is taking off with partial
spoilers I try to insure that * they are closed and that the tail
dolly
is off among other things.
-
I agree that the tail dolly is easily spottable by wing runner, etc.,
but
this doesn't necessarily apply to airbrakes. If they are unlocked, on
many gliders they'll be flush with the wing surface so that neither wing

runner or tow pilot can tell whether they are locked or not and will
suck
open during the launch.

In my club we use the CBSIFTCBE check where the Brakes item requires the

pilot to open the brakes fully, check for equal extension, do the same
for half brake, and then close and lock them. This, by itself, is a
pretty good assurance that they'll be locked but the pilot can still get

interrupted while he's doing checks and forget 'brakes', so this season

the winch cable hooker-onner has instructions not to put the cable on
unless the pilot explicitly says "Brakes locked: cable on, please" and
to
prompt the pilot if he doesn't report brakes locked.

This procedure also makes sense for aero tow.

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |

Good point, well taken. *While the brakes can suck open if not locked,
the wing runner visual inspection is only part of the safety sequence.
Still I have seen people give me the thumbs up while the spoilers were
clearly open. The requirement to have the pilot specifically state
"brakes locked, cable on please," is a good one. *The more we can do to
eliminate errors the better.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well I know it's been said many times before but ... Please recognize
that many pilots of Std Class gliders will always start takeoff roll
with airbrakes open. If you see the brakes moving it's a sign the
pilot's hand is on the handle and he knows they are open. If you see
the brakes open as the slack comes out, be aware that is a normal
event and do not stop the launch.

On most modern gliders brakes that are closed but not locked will
leave the brake caps slighly above flush. Look for that and if they
don't open then consider stopping the launch.

At a site where I am not known I'll usually tell the wing runner and
the tow pilot that the brakes will be open at the start of takeoff
roll. Some pilots cycle the brakes a few times as the slack comes out
so the tuggie knows what to expect.

Andy

On Apr 13, 5:32*pm, Andy wrote:
On Apr 13, 7:06*am, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.





wrote:
'Martin Gregorie[_5_ Wrote:

;768541']On Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:45:21 +0000, Walt Connelly wrote:
-
When I am the
wing runner, unless a pilot tells me he is taking off with partial
spoilers I try to insure that * they are closed and that the tail
dolly
is off among other things.
-
I agree that the tail dolly is easily spottable by wing runner, etc.,
but
this doesn't necessarily apply to airbrakes. If they are unlocked, on
many gliders they'll be flush with the wing surface so that neither wing

runner or tow pilot can tell whether they are locked or not and will
suck
open during the launch.

In my club we use the CBSIFTCBE check where the Brakes item requires the

pilot to open the brakes fully, check for equal extension, do the same
for half brake, and then close and lock them. This, by itself, is a
pretty good assurance that they'll be locked but the pilot can still get

interrupted while he's doing checks and forget 'brakes', so this season

the winch cable hooker-onner has instructions not to put the cable on
unless the pilot explicitly says "Brakes locked: cable on, please" and
to
prompt the pilot if he doesn't report brakes locked.

This procedure also makes sense for aero tow.

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |

Good point, well taken. *While the brakes can suck open if not locked,
the wing runner visual inspection is only part of the safety sequence.
Still I have seen people give me the thumbs up while the spoilers were
clearly open. The requirement to have the pilot specifically state
"brakes locked, cable on please," is a good one. *The more we can do to
eliminate errors the better.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well I know it's been said many times before but ... Please recognize
that many pilots of Std Class gliders will always start takeoff roll
with airbrakes open. If you see the brakes moving it's a sign the
pilot's hand is on the handle and he knows they are open. *If you see
the brakes open as the slack comes out, be aware that is a normal
event and do not stop the launch.

On most modern gliders brakes that are closed but not locked will
leave the brake caps slighly above flush. Look for that and if they
don't open then consider stopping the launch.

At a site where I am not known I'll usually tell the wing runner and
the tow pilot that the brakes will be open at the start of takeoff
roll. *Some pilots cycle the brakes a few times as the slack comes out
so the tuggie knows what to expect.

Andy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Around here, we teach our pilots to keep the left hand lightly "on" or
near the spoiler handle. If the spoilers open up, you know right
away.

I always questioned the idea of starting the ground roll with the
spoilers open...but at least the guys who do that have their left hand
on the spoiler handle.

The pre take off checklist is 100% the responsibility of the
pilot.......the status of the spoilers (whether closed and locked, or
open for take off roll) should be on this checklist. Spoilers opening
on tow can only be the fault of one person, the PIC.

The ground crew is in no way responsible for the pilot's peflight
duties or pre take off duties. If the ground crew does notice a
problem, of course they should speak up, but I would rather see the
ground crew concentration on their own important responsibilties.

Cookie

On Apr 13, 6:59*pm, "
wrote:

I always questioned the idea of starting the ground roll with the
spoilers open...but at least the guys who do that have their left hand
on the spoiler handle.

15m guys do it too. It's basic survival in some std class ships, but
it also aids start of launch roll control in my ASW-20, and I've seen
plenty of 27 guys do this as well. Various aerodynamic "theories" as
to why this is effective are not very satisfying, but it's clear the
technique is effective.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Well I know it's been said many times before but ... Please recognize
that many pilots of Std Class gliders will always start takeoff roll
with airbrakes open.

Having owned and flown an L-33 (glider type cited by Cookie), I never
needed to use spoilers for takeoff because the ailerons were so
effective at very low speeds. So was the intentional use of spoilers
confirmed or is this just another theoretical discussion?

Horst