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[OT] USA - TSA Obstructing Armed Pilots?
All -
I'm especially interested in comments from any of the "current and former military pilots with top-secret clearances" (as mentioned below) that might be out there. --- Where are the armed pilots? --------------------------- By Tracy W. Price Washington Post, 12 December 2003 On Nov. 25, 2002, President Bush signed the Arming Pilots Against Terrorism Act. The law compelled the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) to train and arm airline pilots who volunteered for the program. One year later, many Americans believe that large numbers of airline pilots are now carrying guns. Sadly, they are wrong. On Aug. 26, the TSA gleefully reported that far fewer airline pilots have volunteered for the armed pilot program than pilot groups estimated might volunteer. Currently, only a few thousand pilots have volunteered for the program out of about 100,000 that are eligible. The large majority of Americans who support arming airline pilots might rightfully ask: Where are the volunteers? The answer to the question is really quite simple. The TSA has very intentionally and successfully minimized the number of volunteers through thinly veiled threats and by making the program difficult and threatening to get into. Airline pilots practice their profession at the pleasure of the federal government. Airline Captains must hold an airline transport pilot's certificate (ATP) issued by the FAA. To gain the experience required by a major airline, a pilot must have thousands of flight hours amassed over many years. Once hired by an airline, pilots are required to demonstrate their proficiency in four-hour long sessions in flight simulators twice each year. Annually, airline pilots will receive a "line check" in which "check pilots" ride in the cockpit and evaluate the crew's performance. Several times each year, FAA examiners — without notice — show up to give pilots a check ride. Twice each year, airline captains are required to report to FAA-designated physicians for a physical and psychological exam. Medical history is evaluated and a physical exam with exacting standards is performed. FAA doctors are trained to ask probing questions, looking for any sign of psychological instability, stress or depression. Failing to meet the standard for any of these evaluations will, of course, result in immediate removal from the flying schedule and loss of any opportunity to be employed as a pilot. Now, fresh with this backdrop of the professional life of an airline pilot, consider the armed pilot program that the TSA has constructed. Understand that the TSA is opposed to the armed pilot program. Last year, the TSA granted itself the power to revoke a pilot's ATP if it deems him to be a security threat. Pilots who volunteer for training to carry guns must complete a very detailed, 13-page application and submit to a three-hour written psychological exam probing into the most private workings of any person: his thoughts, feelings, opinions and emotions. Pilots who pass this government-sponsored psychological strip-search are then ordered to report to a government psychologist for a one-on-one "interview." For the pilots that finally make it into training, they will have to travel at their own expense to and pay for their own room and board in Artesia, N.M. Artesia is a four-hour drive from El Paso, Texas, the nearest city. Airline pilots evaluate the totality of the TSA's armed-pilot program and they have declined to participate in droves. Too many airline pilots view the TSA armed pilot program as a potentially career threatening fiasco that will cost each pilot who volunteers at least one week of flight pay and require him to bare his soul to an out-of-control government agency that hates the idea of armed pilots. Couple this with the breathtaking failure of many current and former military pilots with top-secret clearances to pass the TSA psychological evaluations and pilots are saying, "No, thanks." To justify their intrusive tactics, the TSA says, "We need to make sure that each pilot we allow to fly armed can use the gun to kill terrorists and then be calm enough to land safely." In other words, We think that you'd be better off dead. Obviously, pilots won't volunteer for the program in the first place unless they are willing to use a gun. Moreover, if a pilot is "screened out" of the program by the TSA psychological soothsayers and terrorists attack his cockpit, the outcome is very certain: He, all of his passengers and possibly many thousands on the ground will soon be dead. A logical armed-pilot program would not be looking for ways to screen pilots out; it would be looking for ways to encourage more volunteers. We have endured almost two years of TSA searches of law-abiding citizens, yet recent news reports show that al Qaeda operatives remain interested in targeting airliners. Nothing the TSA has done thus far has sufficiently deterred al Qaeda. Embarrassed by a college student who easily snuck knives on board airliners, the TSA now plans to use technology that will "see through" each passenger's clothing and present them naked to the government screeners. Further violation of our rights is not the answer, but hardening the target is the answer. Congress should take all discretion about which pilots get into the armed-pilot program away from the TSA, just as 36 states have done with "Shall Issue" concealed carry laws. Capt. Tracy W. Price flies Boeing 737s for a major airline and is the former chairman of the Airline Pilots' Security Alliance. Copyright © 2003 News World Communications, Inc. |
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In talk.politics.guns "No Spam!" wrote:
All - I'm especially interested in comments from any of the "current and former military pilots with top-secret clearances" (as mentioned below) that might be out there. Greg "Wild Weasel" Dean, where are you? |
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On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:49:35 -0600, "No Spam!"
wrote: All - I'm especially interested in comments from any of the "current and former military pilots with top-secret clearances" (as mentioned below) that might be out there. --- First, this reply is not cross-posted but only appended to rec.aviation.military. I'm a former military pilot who held TS clearance. That is irrelevant to the article you posted, since I don't fly for the airlines. TS clearance has nothing at all to do with competence with personal weapons. A military aviation rating has nothing to do with competence with personal weapons. I am an NRA Life Member and have held a concealed carry permit for the last nine years. I have a close friend, ex-fighter aviator and current major airline pilot who is a graduate of both Gunsite and Thunder Ranch. He has a concealed carry permit in his current state of residence and is a reserve police sergeant in a major American city near his airline domicile. He has not been approved (yet) for the TSA training. Dare we note that federal bureaucracy is seldom the most efficient solution to major problems. I like the idea of armed cockpit crews. I like it better than sky marshalls. I am convinced that training is required, but feel that the training could be better handled by contract schools rather than federal bureaucrats. Now, did you have a specific reason for asking for comments from former military with TS clearances? Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8 |
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Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:49:35 -0600, "No Spam!" wrote: All - I'm especially interested in comments from any of the "current and former military pilots with top-secret clearances" (as mentioned below) that might be out there. --- First, this reply is not cross-posted but only appended to rec.aviation.military. I'm a former military pilot who held TS clearance. That is irrelevant to the article you posted, since I don't fly for the airlines. No, it's not... see below... ....snipped... Now, did you have a specific reason for asking for comments from former military with TS clearances? Ed Rasimus Ed - Yes, I did - a very specific reason. I am well aware of the difference between military & civilian aviation and the purposes of clearances, having held them myself. As I stated in my original post, Please read the article, which, in part, states: "Airline pilots evaluate the totality of the TSA's armed-pilot program and they have declined to participate in droves. Too many airline pilots view the TSA armed pilot program as a potentially career threatening fiasco that will cost each pilot who volunteers at least one week of flight pay and require him to bare his soul to an out-of-control government agency that hates the idea of armed pilots. Couple this with the breathtaking failure of many current and former military pilots with top-secret clearances to pass the TSA psychological evaluations and pilots are saying, "No, thanks."" I am asking for any feedback: confirming, denying, or otherwise, from "many current and former military pilots with top-secret clearances". I'd also welcome feedback from anyone else _knowledable_ about the subject. If the TSA is failing pilots with former or current TS (or other) clearances, it is, at least to me, a clear sign the program is not working as planned and is, as the author suggests, merely a ploy by the TSA to discourage pilots from trying to get certified. I realize too many idiots post here, but perhaps you could read the article in question before deciding I had no valid reason to post what I posted. |
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On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:44:42 -0600, "No Spam!"
wrote: Ed Rasimus wrote: On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 10:49:35 -0600, "No Spam!" wrote: All - I'm especially interested in comments from any of the "current and former military pilots with top-secret clearances" (as mentioned below) that might be out there. --- First, this reply is not cross-posted but only appended to rec.aviation.military. I'm a former military pilot who held TS clearance. That is irrelevant to the article you posted, since I don't fly for the airlines. No, it's not... see below... ...snipped... Now, did you have a specific reason for asking for comments from former military with TS clearances? Ed Rasimus Ed - Yes, I did - a very specific reason. I am well aware of the difference between military & civilian aviation and the purposes of clearances, having held them myself. As I stated in my original post, Please read the article, which, in part, states: "Airline pilots evaluate the totality of the TSA's armed-pilot program and they have declined to participate in droves. Too many airline pilots view the TSA armed pilot program as a potentially career threatening fiasco that will cost each pilot who volunteers at least one week of flight pay and require him to bare his soul to an out-of-control government agency that hates the idea of armed pilots. Couple this with the breathtaking failure of many current and former military pilots with top-secret clearances to pass the TSA psychological evaluations and pilots are saying, "No, thanks."" I am asking for any feedback: confirming, denying, or otherwise, from "many current and former military pilots with top-secret clearances". I'd also welcome feedback from anyone else _knowledable_ about the subject. If the TSA is failing pilots with former or current TS (or other) clearances, it is, at least to me, a clear sign the program is not working as planned and is, as the author suggests, merely a ploy by the TSA to discourage pilots from trying to get certified. I realize too many idiots post here, but perhaps you could read the article in question before deciding I had no valid reason to post what I posted. I responded, as someone meeting the criteria you established and added some other qualifications to render my opinion from among the "knowledgeable". Let me point out a couple of things again--cross-posting is poor form. Anonymity in both name and domain are poor form. Attacking someone who responded to your question as not _knowledgeable_ is poor form. And, I sincerely hope that I don't fall among the "too many idiots" who post here. Let me point out also that security clearance is not related to qualification for line-of-duty weapons carriage. Security clearance lapses when leaving the military and unless an airline pilot is also flying Guard or Reserve, they do not normally have a security clearance. The article you posted is by an individual who has an opinion, but it does not support the contention (although I've got little reason to doubt the validity) that the TSA is a mis-managed bureaucracy. There is no mention of pilots failing to pass the psychological evaluations and no relationship between such passage or failure and a current or past security clearance. The program is barely a year old. Many airline pilots do not choose to assume the responsibility of armed intervention. Many pilots eagerly volunteer. The program is behind in qualification. The standards required may not be valid. The assumption of qualification by the candidates may not be valid. Airline pilots typically fly less than twelve days a month. A week for training, if they voluntarily choose such a course, is not a "make or break" hardship for these guys. Now, let me ask again. You wrote: I am asking for any feedback: confirming, denying, or otherwise, from "many current and former military pilots with top-secret clearances". I ask "confirming, denying or otherwise..." what??? And, you wrote: If the TSA is failing pilots with former or current TS (or other) clearances, it is, at least to me, a clear sign the program is not working as planned Can you show some evidence of this? If you ask questions, one can only assume you seek information or discussion and not that you are simply advocating. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8 |
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"No Spam!" wrote in
: All - I'm especially interested in comments from any of the "current and former military pilots with top-secret clearances" (as mentioned below) that might be out there. Where are the armed pilots? By Tracy W. Price Washington Post, 12 December 2003 "No Spam": this is an editorial that appeared in the WASHINGTON TIMES, not the Washington Post, 11 days ago, which is why you neglected to provide a URL like the previous posters of this opinion piece back on the 12th. cf: Message-ID: cf: Message-ID: 7KzCb.10078$m83.1043@fed1read01 So your attempt at legitimization through fake association fails. You're just a gunlobby shill spamming for Glock, eh "No Spam"? Laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh. -- Join the NRA Blacklist! http://www.nrablacklist.com/ The Lone Weasel |
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In rec.aviation.military No Spam! wrote:
: Further violation of our rights is not the answer, but hardening : the target is the answer. Congress should take all discretion about : which pilots get into the armed-pilot program away from the TSA, just as : 36 states have done with "Shall Issue" concealed carry laws. This seems rather silly to me. Aviation authorities all over the world take a strict line when monitoring all the professional skills and qualifications of airline pilots. If carrying guns is added to the package of their tasks, then why should they be any less strict about that? The logical thing to do, if pilots have to act as air marshalls as well, is to give them the full training of air marshalls, so I suspect one week's training is an absolute minimum anyway. I also think that it is very sensible to build in barriers to deflect away people who wouldn't take the responsibility seriously enough. If the TSA is inefficient, bureaucratic, and unfriendly about it, what's new? The entire system seems to be that way. Personally I try to limit contact with US airlines and US airports to a minimum, even if that means having to take a flight from Heathrow (still, not nearly as bad as Boston). -- Emmanuel Gustin |
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"No Spam!" wrote in message ... All - I'm especially interested in comments from any of the "current and former military pilots with top-secret clearances" (as mentioned below) that might be out there. --- Where are the armed pilots? --------------------------- By Tracy W. Price response restricted to rec.aviation.military I don't understand why you are posting an article that states an opinion, then asking for information on security clearances without stating your reasons for seeking the information and/or your opinion on the posted article. Not that there's anything sinister about that, but I think I can tell you up front that most of us who have gone through a security clearance situation don't really talk about it, even in private.....at least that's been my personal experience. I think I can tell you with some degree of authority however that those who WILL discuss these things with you failed the security investigation :-))) I don't believe you are going to gender much response here with this type of post; at least from anyone who has actual experience with these matters. If all you want are opinions on the article, I would suggest you say so. I'm sure there are those out here with opinions both pro and con on the armed pilot issue. If this is the case, I'll submit to you that I'm for arming pilots and in no way interested in discussing the in's and out's of the security clearance mechanism. Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired For personal email, please replace the z's with e's. dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt |
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"Dudley Henriques" wrote:
I don't understand why you are posting an article that states an opinion, then asking for information on security clearances without stating your reasons for seeking the information and/or your opinion on the posted article. Not that there's anything sinister about that, but I think I can tell you up front that most of us who have gone through a security clearance situation don't really talk about it, even in private.....at least that's been my personal experience. I think I can tell you with some degree of authority however that those who WILL discuss these things with you failed the security investigation :-))) I've been following this thread with interest and was just curious as to exactly what constitutes a "security clearance." Can't you even provide us with a vague, thumbnail sketch of what a top secret security clearance is? I don't believe you are going to gender much response here with this type of post; at least from anyone who has actual experience with these matters. If all you want are opinions on the article, I would suggest you say so. I'm sure there are those out here with opinions both pro and con on the armed pilot issue. If this is the case, I'll submit to you that I'm for arming pilots and in no way interested in discussing the in's and out's of the security clearance mechanism. With family flying down to visit over the holidays, my darling wife is all worried about their safety due to the raised threat-level from Arab terrorists. I can certainly understand why guys like you and Ed aren't interested in discussing the in's and out's of the security clearance mechanism, but again, since the topic was brought up can't either of you briefly explain what a security clearance is and why it's so important? Again, just asking and please pardon my ignorance. Interesting article, BTW. Dudley Henriques International Fighter Pilots Fellowship Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired For personal email, please replace the z's with e's. dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt |
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"Mike Marron" wrote in message ... I've been following this thread with interest and was just curious as to exactly what constitutes a "security clearance." Can't you even provide us with a vague, thumbnail sketch of what a top secret security clearance is? It is a security violation to even say you have a "top secret" clearance, Mike. The psyche exam is someting the system has wanted ever since the first airliner pilot suicide was confirmed. When the system was made up of mostly ex-mil operators, such screening was not thought to be necessay, as military pilots had already been conditioned to produce an expected response. |
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