Is FLARM helpful?

You may want to review the SSA Competition Pilot Poll Results posted on the SSA website.

I didn't realize FLARM was such a hot topic in the Poll, and having such varying opinions.

I think the concept is great, but I do not know enough about FLARM and ADS-B to really have much of a conversation about them.

Thanks for the comments above and the direction to the Poll.

If you fly with other gliders, especially cross-country FLARM is the way to go.

I have had several alerts at high altitude and high speeds that I would have never seen the other gliders in time without FLARM.

I flew US Nats in 2009, 2010, and 2011. Three mid-airs, one fatal. Since 2012 all nats have had mostly FLARM equipped gliders, no mid-airs. I would not race without FLARM now and all our local group flys with FLARM.

TT

If you fly with other gliders, especially cross-country FLARM is the way to go.

I have had several alerts at high altitude and high speeds that I would have never seen the other gliders in time without FLARM.

I flew US Nats in 2009, 2010, and 2011. Three mid-airs, one fatal. Since 2012 all nats have had mostly FLARM equipped gliders, no mid-airs. I would not race without FLARM now and all our local group uses FLARM.

TT

On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 9:29:27 PM UTC-5, Tim Taylor wrote:
If you fly with other gliders, especially cross-country FLARM is the way to go.

I have had several alerts at high altitude and high speeds that I would have never seen the other gliders in time without FLARM.

I flew US Nats in 2009, 2010, and 2011. Three mid-airs, one fatal. Since 2012 all nats have had mostly FLARM equipped gliders, no mid-airs. I would not race without FLARM now and all our local group uses FLARM.

TT

I recall a mid air(fatal) at Uvalde, and one at Parowan. Where was the third/
There is an implied cause and effect that is partially true. To get a better sense of this implication, it would be worthwhile to look to the preceding periods of time. Data point- the last fatal mid air before Uvalde was in the mid 80's at Ephata during a 70 glider race that was winner take all for team selection.
Do not misinterpret my comment. I use Flarm, and was a very early adoptor, but get quite tired of the well meaning true zealots over selling to make their case.
UH

On Thursday, November 26, 2015 at 8:49:15 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, November 21, 2015 at 9:29:27 PM UTC-5, Tim Taylor wrote:
If you fly with other gliders, especially cross-country FLARM is the way to go.

I have had several alerts at high altitude and high speeds that I would have never seen the other gliders in time without FLARM.

I flew US Nats in 2009, 2010, and 2011. Three mid-airs, one fatal. Since 2012 all nats have had mostly FLARM equipped gliders, no mid-airs. I would not race without FLARM now and all our local group uses FLARM.

TT

I recall a mid air(fatal) at Uvalde, and one at Parowan. Where was the third/
There is an implied cause and effect that is partially true. To get a better sense of this implication, it would be worthwhile to look to the preceding periods of time. Data point- the last fatal mid air before Uvalde was in the mid 80's at Ephata during a 70 glider race that was winner take all for team selection.
Do not misinterpret my comment. I use Flarm, and was a very early adoptor, but get quite tired of the well meaning true zealots over selling to make their case.
UH

Here is the listing of all midairs for 1994-2013. There were 20 reported to FAA, so id doesn't include non-reported - which presumably would be more minor since they would unlikely include an insurance claim. It averages 1 per year. Uvalde had one fatal collision in 2010 and a non-fatal in 2012. There is some coding to show phase of flight and whether it was Glider-Glider, Glider-Towplane or Glider-GA as well as Takeoff, Landing or Mid-flight. Sorry for the poor formatting. A spreadsheet with all glider accidents in the US can be found he

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing


8/17/2012 Uvalde, TX SCHLEICHER ASG29-15M F-CIFB CEN12LA553A Non-Fatal 0 MIDFLT FLT MID G-G
8/17/2012 Uvalde, TX SCHLEICHER ASG29-15M D-6080 CEN12LA553B Non-Fatal 0 MIDFLT FLT MID G-G
6/7/2012 Sparks, NV SCHEMPP-HIRTH STANDARD CIRRUS N943SB WPR12LA250A Non-Fatal 0 MIDFLT FLT MID G-G
6/7/2012 Sparks, NV CENTRAIR C101A N101LV WPR12LA250B Non-Fatal 0 MIDFLT FLT MID G-G
8/4/2010 Batesville, TX ALEXANDER SCHLEICHER GMBH ASW 27-18 N8829A CEN10LA459B Fatal 1 MIDFLT FLT MID G-G
8/4/2010 Batesville, TX SCHEMPP-HIRTH VENTUS-2B N7470C CEN10LA459A Fatal 0 MIDFLT FLT MID G-G
6/15/2010 Parowan, UT SCHLEICHER ALEXANDER ASH 26 E N455S WPR10LA294A Non-Fatal 0 MIDFLT FLT MID G-G
6/15/2010 Parowan, UT SCHEMPP-HIRTH Ventus 2CT N514TW WPR10LA294A Non-Fatal 0 MIDFLT FLT MID G-G
2/6/2010 Boulder, CO SCHWEIZER SGS 2-32 N2472W CEN10FA115C Fatal 3 MIDFLT FLT MID TP-GA
11/28/2009 Middletown, CA SCHLEICHER ASW-27 N127AL WPR10FA068A Fatal 2 MIDLDG LDG MID G-TP
8/9/2008 Brackettville, TX Schempp-Hirth Ventus 2A N777UN DEN08LA137A Non-Fatal 0 MIDFLT FLT MID G-G
8/9/2008 Brackettville, TX AB Sportine Aviacija Genesis 2 N110RG DEN08LA137B Non-Fatal 0 MIDFLT FLT MID G-G
8/28/2006 Smith, NV Schleicher ASW27-18 N7729 LAX06FA277B Non-Fatal 0 MIDFLT FLT MID G-GA
4/1/2004 Oso, WA Glaser-Dirks DG-400 N400WJ SEA04LA063B Fatal 1 MIDFLT FLT MID G-G
4/1/2004 Oso, WA Glasflugel STD Libelle 201B N161D SEA04LA063A Fatal 0 MIDFLT FLT MID G-G
12/28/2003 Peoria, AZ Schleicher ASK-21 N274KS ANC04FA016B Fatal 4 MIDFLT FLT MID G-GA
5/1/1999 HILLTOWN, PA Burkhart Grob G-103 TWIN II N47938 IAD99FA041B Fatal 3 MIDFLT FLT MID G-TP
12/19/1998 OKEECHOBEE, FL Let L-13 N98KK MIA99LA051B Non-Fatal 0 MIDFLT FLT MID G-GA
6/29/1996 BOULDER, CO Burkhart Grob G103C TWIN III N103LM FTW96FA279B Fatal 2 MIDLDG LDG MID G-GA
5/8/1994 ELBERT, CO ROLLADEN-SCHNEIDER LS-4 N4MN FTW94LA151 Non-Fatal 0 MIDLDG LDG MID G-TP

UH,

I should have been clearer, these were contests I was personally flying in.

We had three years in a row at contests where I was flying. Uvalde, Parowan, and then Uvalde again. I was beginning to wonder if this was becoming the norm or I was just really bad luck and should stop going to contests.

I flew at Mifflin in 2012, which was the first US nationals where PowerFlarm was available for many contestants. We were installing them during the rain days as you remember. Every contest after that has seen an increase in the number of pilots with PowerFlarm and I have not had to personally listen to the radio calls of the aftermath of a midair. After the last one at Uvalde I never want to hear it again.

I hope that PowerFlarm is mandatory at all Nationals in the future.

Tim (TT)

On Thursday, November 26, 2015 at 4:14:08 PM UTC-7, Tim Taylor wrote:
UH,

I should have been clearer, these were contests I was personally flying in.

We had three years in a row at contests where I was flying. Uvalde, Parowan, and then Uvalde again. I was beginning to wonder if this was becoming the norm or I was just really bad luck and should stop going to contests.
I was at all three of those contests that Tim mentions. Listening to the radio traffic was nothing compared to listening to the wail of the wife being informed at Uvalde. I went home straight away on the determination that I would never fly another contest day.

The adoption of PowerFlarm allowed me to change that determination.

Someone here just said that they're tired of listening to people oversell PowerFlarm. I say that's not possible.

I find myself quite irritated when there are still typically one or two folks that will show up at a given contest without a PowerFlarm and that they are permitted to fly.

I thought there were two posts worth repeating below and hope everyone takes an honest look. Steve's post was poignant. I did hear the contest committee will require Flarm in stealth mode at contests, if you have one.

Shouldn't preserving life be our highest goal, even more important than winning a contest or being annoyed by the theoretical possibility of someone leaching for a few thermals?

For the price of a parachute you can save two lives.

Steve Koerner wrote:

I was at all three of those contests that Tim mentions. Listening to the radio traffic was nothing compared to listening to the wail of the wife being informed at Uvalde. I went home straight away on the determination that I would never fly another contest day.

The adoption of PowerFlarm allowed me to change that determination.

Someone here just said that they're tired of listening to people oversell PowerFlarm. I say that's not possible.

I find myself quite irritated when there are still typically one or two folks that will show up at a given contest without a PowerFlarm and that they are permitted to fly.

Richard from craggyaero wrote:

I have also observed this situation many times in the Nephi OLC camps and contests. High closure rates and Configuring your PowerFlarm in the Stealth mode would make this situation a safety concern. It would limit the time to respond to a conflict situation. With the Stealth mode off these situation are visible for many miles and evasive action is easy.

Stealth mode on this situation is much more immediate and dangerous with little time to identify, find and respond to the threat.


On Thursday, November 26, 2015 at 4:44:04 PM UTC-8, Steve Koerner wrote:

I was at all three of those contests that Tim mentions. Listening to the radio traffic was nothing compared to listening to the wail of the wife being informed at Uvalde. I went home straight away on the determination that I would never fly another contest day.

The adoption of PowerFlarm allowed me to change that determination.

Someone here just said that they're tired of listening to people oversell PowerFlarm. I say that's not possible.

I find myself quite irritated when there are still typically one or two folks that will show up at a given contest without a PowerFlarm and that they are permitted to fly.

Re "alarms coming from the wrong direction". Flarm uses true tracks not headings. On ridges with a high crosswind component and low airspeed an alert being indicated as being straight ahead may be from 30 degrees or more offset with respect to one's own glider heading. This was highlighted in 2007 in our Scottish Gliding Centre trial and should be understood and allowed for by users. There is no practical technical way to avoid that - not until we all have electronic compasses out on our wingtips anyway.

At 06:34 27 November 2015, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
I thought there were two posts worth repeating below and hope everyone
take=
s an honest look. Steve's post was poignant. I did hear the contest
committ=
ee will require Flarm in stealth mode at contests, if you have one.

Shouldn't preserving life be our highest goal, even more important than
win=
ning a contest or being annoyed by the theoretical possibility of someone
l=
eaching for a few thermals? =20

This has been done over a thousand times. If you want a super safe
competition don't leave the ground.

Competition in gliders is inherently dangerous. But, Flarm or not, it is
not probable that you will have a fatal accident. Competition pilots weigh
up risk all the time and understand that by taking part they are taking a
risk.

The risk is small and made smaller by the use of Flarm. We should not avoid
risk as our highest goal. We should aim to collectively enjoy the sport
with an appropriate level of risk - mitigated by Flarm.

I believe Flarm should be mandated in competition and also believe it
should be used in stealth mode to allow handling and soaring skill to be
more relevant than radar reading and tactical flying.

Jim