Class B bust my fault or the controllers ?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
You're responsible for any bust. If following the instruction meant
entering the Class B airspace I'd respond to it with "verify I'm cleared
into Class B airspace." If the controller replies with "Negative" I'd
inform
him I was turning to avoid Class B airspace. Pilots are required to abide
by the FARs regardless of any ATC instruction.

I don't dispute that the FAA takes that position. But the FARs themselves
are contradictory on that point. FAR 91.123b requires obeying ATC
instructions, except if an emergency requires otherwise. There's no stated
exception for non-emergency violations of the regs. If the tower says
"Continue downwind, I'll call your base" and then hasn't gotten back to you
two minutes later when you're about to enter Class B, and if the frequency
is too crowded for you to call, then the only way to avoid busting Class B
may be to violate 91.123b.

--Gary

"Doug" wrote:
Uh, If you are on an IFR flight plan, you don't need to hear "cleared
for Class B". At least that is always the way it has worked for me.

The applicable reg is 91.131(a)(1): "No person may operate an aircraft
within a Class B airspace area except [...] The operator must receive an
ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area
before operating an aircraft in that area"

If you are IFR, you have "a clearance". You don't have to specifically be
cleared into the class bravo, you just have to have "a clearance".

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
...

I don't dispute that the FAA takes that position. But the FARs themselves
are contradictory on that point. FAR 91.123b requires obeying ATC
instructions, except if an emergency requires otherwise. There's no stated
exception for non-emergency violations of the regs. If the tower says
"Continue downwind, I'll call your base" and then hasn't gotten back to
you two minutes later when you're about to enter Class B, and if the
frequency is too crowded for you to call, then the only way to avoid
busting Class B may be to violate 91.123b.


Given that the FAA tells it's controllers that pilots are required to abide
by the FARs regardless of any ATC instruction, who is there to charge you
with violating FAR 91.123(b) in this situation?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
Given that the FAA tells it's controllers that pilots are required to
abide by the FARs regardless of any ATC instruction, who is there to
charge you with violating FAR 91.123(b) in this situation?

No one, presumably. As I said, I don't dispute that the FAA takes that
position. This is just another situation where I wish they'd amend the FARs
to say what they mean.

--Gary

Gary Drescher wrote:

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
You're responsible for any bust. If following the instruction meant
entering the Class B airspace I'd respond to it with "verify I'm cleared
into Class B airspace." If the controller replies with "Negative" I'd
inform
him I was turning to avoid Class B airspace. Pilots are required to abide
by the FARs regardless of any ATC instruction.

I don't dispute that the FAA takes that position. But the FARs themselves
are contradictory on that point. FAR 91.123b requires obeying ATC
instructions, except if an emergency requires otherwise. There's no stated
exception for non-emergency violations of the regs. If the tower says
"Continue downwind, I'll call your base" and then hasn't gotten back to you
two minutes later when you're about to enter Class B, and if the frequency
is too crowded for you to call, then the only way to avoid busting Class B
may be to violate 91.123b.

--Gary

If frequency conjestion creates a sustained inability to request either a Class
B clearance to enter the imminent Class B airspace or a new instruction to avoid
the Class B, you have an emergency brewing. An emergency is not limited to the
aircraft having a mechanical or similar such problem. Violating Class B
airspace has unknown ramifactions, such as perhaps approach control seeing the
intrustion and declaring an emergency on your flight because of loss of
separation, etc., etc.

So, in that light, use of your emergency authority under 91.03 (a) and (b) would
be considered appropriate. Having said that, whatever action you have to take
to avoid the Class B should be reasonable and prudent so as to not unnecessarily
create an unsafe condition for the local controller working your flight.

Sometimes, operating in conjested airspace involves juggling several balls at
the same time. Operating IFR actually makes it all more straight-forward
because the entire concept of Class B operates in favor of IFR operations.

When Class B (TCAs) first was proposed in this country there were a lot of
advocates that wanted to make that airspace Class A. But, other interests
strongly opposed going that far.

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
...

No one, presumably.

Exactly. It's not an issue.

wrote in message ...
An emergency is not limited to the
aircraft having a mechanical or similar such problem. Violating Class B
airspace has unknown ramifactions, such as perhaps approach control seeing
the
intrustion and declaring an emergency on your flight because of loss of
separation, etc., etc.

It's true that a controller *might*, for additional reasons, deem a Class B
incursion to be an emergency. But I doubt that a slight breach of Class B,
with good visibility and no conflicting traffic, would *by itself*
constitute an emergency. So I don't think 91.3b would necessarily come into
play.

Again, I don't dispute that you should avoid the incursion, even if you have
to violate 91.123b. I just wish the FARs weren't contradictory on that
point.

--Gary

wrote in message ...

If frequency conjestion creates a sustained inability to request either a
Class
B clearance to enter the imminent Class B airspace or a new instruction to
avoid
the Class B, you have an emergency brewing.


Well, that's certainly a stretch, but if you respond as I suggested it's not
a problem.

According to my SEA Class B chart, if you are at 800 feet and turn before
you get to I-405, you will not enter Class B. Something to check before
takeoff. The Boeing controller has no authority in the SEA Class B. You
should have spoken up before reaching 405.

Bob Gardner

"Antoñio" wrote in message
oups.com...
Today I flew into KBFI (Boeing field) which is class D and has
extentions that underlie the Class B that require close attention to
altitudes and headings so as to stay clear. Today the winds were
favoring 31L (and 31R) and I came in from the west on the Vashon
approach--the most common approach from the west.

I was on a left downwind for 31L and the tower told me I was number
three following an Arrow on about a 2 mile straight in final (Valley
approach?). I acknowledged the traffic, and was waiting for it to come
up on my 9 o'clock before turning base so as to allow enough spacing.

The controller suddenly told me that I was too far south and said
either that I had busted into surface B or was about to. (I never did
clearly hear which).
Unless one turns a fairly close in base here--within about a half mile
or less--you end up in class B surface.

My questions:

1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to
follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can
reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the
aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right?

2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn
base and not be in conflict with other aircraft?

3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ?

Any thoughts would be appreciated...

Antonio

But I doubt that a slight breach of Class B,
with good visibility and no conflicting traffic, would *by itself*
constitute an emergency. So I don't think 91.3b would necessarily come into
play.

An emergency is whatever the PIC deems it to be at the time. So, ok,
you're on the ground, they have paperwork for you, and it ends up in a
faceoff between you and the FAA.

The controller says "You disobeyed my order. Fie on you."

You say "You ordered me to violate the law, creating an unsafe
condition. Fie on you."

The controller says "By turning early, you created an unsafe condition."

You say "By turning early, I created an inconvenience for you, and I was
on your frequency. By not turning early, I'd create an inconvenience
for an unknown entity with whom I was not in communication."

My guess is that the FAA would side with you turning to avoid the class B.

Jose
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