How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

On 8/15/2015 10:29 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
Snip
Here's the thing. I fly 3X as frequently as most XC pilots at my club. For
the most part, they only fly on 'good XC days', and the coincidence of
'good XC days' with 'days off' is infrequent in Vermont. I'm not sure that
I would/should want to ever fly that infrequently.

I have fun flying on a lot of 'marginal days'. Timing my launch to coincide
with the 1-2 hours of workable lift on a marginal day is fun.

"Roger that!"
- - - - - -


So sure, I'm trying to extend my endurance so that I can fly real XC
flights. But I hope that flying on marginal days does not lose it's
appeal. If at some point, I join the ranks of XC pilots that only fly
infrequently, I may very well quit the sport at that stage. Maybe when I
reach that stage, I won't have to fly so frequently to maintain my
currency. I'm in no rush to quit the sport, so my present fun and
extremely slow progression to fly XC seems a good way for me to enjoy the
sport for many years to come.

Do XC pilots ever recover the joy of flying on marginal days?

Recover? Are there any that lose it (as distinct from those who try XC only on
days when bricks can soar)? Some of my most memorably fun & satisfying flights
have been on what, at preliminary best guess, appeared to be anywhere from
unsoarable to pure survival days. A few of those turned out to even be
awesomely good XC days, though most were pretty much as they looked, though
soarable. And - and here's a key point - if a person takes a tow (or snap)
every chance they make for themselves, then tries to hang on until they're
forced to land by absence of lift, over time they'll begin to learn that it's
more often soarable - XC, too! - than not, regardless of one's
"pre-experiential" preconceptions.

I obtained my license in Maryland (Cumberland) which is where I also made my
first landout, but actually learned (as in, taught myself through reading,
brain-picking and flying-until-forced-to-land) to fly XC in the intermountain
west. Out west was where I began to realize a person's mental outlook was
fundamentally important to how (fast) they clumb the XC learning curve. Many a
time at my home club I'd take tows on what I soon began to call "Eastern days"
when fellow club members demurred due to (low cloudbases, preconceived
notions, etc.). Most of those days proved soarable, and XC soon became part of
those days' picture...and yet I'd typically return to find almost no one else
had towed or even stayed up long locally. That was in the late '70's & early
'80s and the local soaring scene (wonderfully enough) has changed hugely from
those unenlightened days of yore.

Point being - and *especially* for relatively inexperienced-in-time soaring
pilots - odds are your post-release-experience will prove considerably
different (likely, better) than your ground-based guess...IF you hoist
yourself aloft, and IF you seek to hang on by your fingernails (should it be
necessary). Eventually "hanging on thermal-by-thermal by one's fingernails"
morphs to "reading what a day is likely to sustain" and - voila! - low-stress
XC, with short retrieves (if necessary).

One memorable cloud-free day yielded ridge-generated tops to ~ 2.7k' agl
(measured relative to the flatlands), and, after several ridge hours, a real
sense of joy when a buddy eventually towed in a similar-performing ship.
Mutual "boredom" and his residence's airpark field about 12 miles away,
resulted in us deciding to "go for it." If we didn't find a thermal away from
the ridge, our "convenient out" was an abandoned/former airstrip at a private
school halfway to his residential airstrip; in any event we'd retrieve each
other, if necessary. An hour or so later we were back on the ridge, savoring a
gratifying little XC. Had it not been so late in the day, we could've likely
gone considerably farther, despite the low thermal tops & absence of clouds,
because often, the toughest part of going east from Boulder was reaching I-25
due to irrigation and - on "somewhat breezy days" which that one wasn't -
wind-induced thermal suppression until some miles away from the foot of the
mountains.

On another day (which began foggy), I drove the the field late "just because
of pent-up demand" despite murk and visibility of perhaps 5-8 miles. It was a
weekend. No one else wanted a tow, but I found rigging help...and about 4
hours later came back from Rifle, CO, on what turned out to be a booming day,
on both sides of the continental divide, while never experiencing more than
*maybe* 15 miles visibility (which for westerners can be psychologically
unsettling, it's so uncommon). Everyone had gone home, and per the departing
towpilot, only one other tow that day. I corralled a passerby to help me
derig, and drove home hardly able - judging from the invisible mountains and
murky sky in my rear-view mirror - to believe the day's soaring experience.

And, yes, there were those days of multiple tows when I simply refused to
believe my failure to be able to remain aloft was due to the day and not me!

YMWV,
Bob W.

Heck yes! Simply being in the air is a joy for me. If I can go XC, all
the better!

On 8/15/2015 10:29 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
snip

Do XC pilots ever recover the joy of flying on marginal days?

--
Dan Marotta

On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 11:12:15 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
Heck yes!* Simply being in the air is a joy for me.* If I can go XC,
all the better!


On 8/15/2015 10:29 AM, son_of_flubber
wrote:

snip

Do XC pilots ever recover the joy of flying on marginal days?


I know a few XC pilots like yourself that fly on marginal days.

But I'm talking about the XC pilots that don't race and who only fly on the rare strong XC day that coincides with their days off. If it came to that, I'd probably quit.

I understand what you're saying.

Last week at Minden we took off early on a blue day in an ASH-30 mi. It
took us an hour and a half of scratching, gaining and losing, heading
out and retreating, before we finally were able to climb. After that,
things got better and we had a great day of soaring. Of course our
average speed was severely impacted by the 1.5 hours of zero mileage,
but we had a terrific time nonetheless.

I'm very fortunate to have a friend who owns such a super ship and loves
to fly as much as I do!

On 8/16/2015 9:43 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 11:12:15 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
Heck yes! Simply being in the air is a joy for me. If I can go XC,
all the better!


On 8/15/2015 10:29 AM, son_of_flubber
wrote:

snip

Do XC pilots ever recover the joy of flying on marginal days?

I know a few XC pilots like yourself that fly on marginal days.

But I'm talking about the XC pilots that don't race and who only fly on the rare strong XC day that coincides with their days off. If it came to that, I'd probably quit.

--
Dan Marotta

How about a team to work on some media coverage? We need a team of people, familiar with how to get coverage, work on getting national coverage for our national contests and local coverage for our local events. NBC, ABC,CBS, FOX, sports channels... They've got a golf channel, why not a Soaring channel? The public needs to see how far and high high we go on maps, with interviews with the winners, and youth participants.

Boggs

On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 10:09:43 AM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
From another thread recently, thought it might be a good topic to paw around with everyone...

For me, soaring is great fun. I've been doing it consistently for about 5 years now. I've met a bunch of amazing, great, kind people and have learned a tremendous amount about the sport (light years left to go). Thru and thru, as a group, soaring pilots, their friends and family are among the nicest, smartest most interesting people I have ever met. I am attracted to this immensely.

Part of the reason I have devoted time and energy to the sport is that am truly inspired by what competition/cross country pilots are capable of doing in gliders. I am still fascinated by it and want to be a part of it. This, for me, was huge. Glider pilots are amazing pilots, PERIOD.

I probably never would have truly learned of the sport (and what it really is at the highest levels), or been so attracted to it if my dad was not involved. Having a family member with a high performance glider, flying it regularly and promoting how amazing the sport could be all the time was key.. Having access to a high performance glider and a group of local friends who could mentor me and take me out on cross country flights shortly after I got my license was the key moment. Would I have got my license if the motivation was just flying around the airport? Probably not.

Those experiences flying with the Ionio boys on short, mentored cross country's "set the hook" for me and eventually led to me buying a glider so that I could fly with everyone rather than leave my dad back at the airport whenever I was flying. Of course once I bought my first glider so I could fly with this gang regularly, the learning curve grew dramatically. The hook set deeper. And so on.

Flying clubs are important to US soaring "health" I suppose but they also seem to lack in areas. They often don't have much to offer in terms of even moderate performance gliders. They often don't promote or in some cases even allow cross country.

It seems that European clubs are more into cross country which is more challenging and more rewarding than local flight, which I think gets old after a year or so. If some inspirational figure is not actively encouraging and facilitating cross country glider flight (the whole point of the sport I think) at that key moment in a glider pilots career, I think they come to the conclusion that they have checked the box and move on.

Obviously without glider clubs more focused on taking pilots into cross country levels, one has to have the financial means to do it on their own. I dont see that as a real problem as numerous 40:1 gliders are available for the same price as a small sailboat or powerboat, which almost everybody seems to have these days (jet skis, snowmobiles, etc). It's a matter of priority. Gliders I suppose are for one person (usually) where a boat (or other rec toy) is for the whole family.

But Europe seems to have an entirely different dynamic with respect to soaring. More youth, larger numbers, etc. U.S. numbers have been steadily declining for 25 years.

One thing I learned in business school. It's often better to adopt successful competitors methods even if at first you don't fully understand them yet. Our clubs (and the SSA) should be talking to European clubs and picking their brains for advise. I wonder how many have actually done that. Perhaps take a trip to Europe on summer and spend a few weeks with a successful club, talk to the people, etc.

Oddly, my flying is at a location that actually IDs itself as IONIA NON CLUB. They don't like the politics. :-).

The rules is a small thing overall but debating the rules is an important thing in terms of competition pilots. My suggestions usually would make getting into competition soaring simpler for the new pilot. I do think our rules are too complicated, but the rule makers are all GREAT PEOPLE, working hard and want nothing but the best for our sport.

Sean
7T

We have been working on generating new cross country pilots at our club (Chicago Glider Club) over the last several years and have had some success with the following approach:

1. When new members without glider licenses join the club and seek instruction we try to introduce them to the idea of flying cross country early in the training process. My initial training flights, when the conditions permit, include taking the pilot to nearby airports, using them as turnpoints and getting the new pilot (many are already airplane rated) used to the idea that we don't just stay at the home field, and that modern gliders have the range to safely fly cross country. We have four airports within 10 miles, so its not much of a trip, but it seems to affect attitudes and expectations in a positive manner.

2. Cross-country and racing is a normal weekend activity at our club when the weather permits, so all members see that a group of us are flying cross-country regularly.

3. We have a training program focused on cross country that includes talks by experienced pilots on relevant issues, followed by practice with an experienced cross-country pilot who is usually a CFIG. We have three club two-place gliders (2 ASK-21s and a Duo Discus), so we have the equipment to do this. We have had good turnout at these events, both from new and older club members, many of whom have not been flying cross-country. After a short talk we fly 1-1/2 hour local tasks and evaluate the results. (I have found, by the way, that the biggest problem, so far, in getting people proficient to fly cross-country is thermaling ability.)

4. Apart from the cross-country flights with instructors, we have arranged for practice off-field landings at a near by RLA with a friendly owner. The pilots fly one of the two place glider to the RLA with an instructor in the backseat. They also tow out to go back to the glider club. This got a lot of interest and was appreciated by people who had never landed anywhere but at our glider club. Its a good project on days when the weather is too weak for cross-country.

5. Our club also has an ASW-24, and we encourage pilots to use it for cross-country flying.

6. We set cross-country tasks on most weekends when the weather cooperates (very few this year). If there are new cross-country pilots flying, the task options include a local MAT that won't take the pilot more than 10 miles or so from our airport, but allow visiting up to five other turnpoints. We encourage people to turn in their flight logs and we post the results, usually with comments from the pilots who flew tasks that day.

Interest has been good and several members who were not flying cross country when they started are now doing so. Mike Shakman

Another way to inspire XC flying is to have club camps away from the
home field and/or soaring safaris. Pilots get to experience different
locations and conditions and have a time of total immersion in soaring
without the pressures of work or going home in the evening.

When I was at Black Forest in Colorado, the club usually held a couple
of camps per year away from home. We'd take our tow plane and at least
one trainer with us for students and newbies and would also sell rides
to tourists to help with costs. These events were usually well
subscribed by private owners and normally occurred over long weekends.

Safaris, on the other hand, usually lasted a week or so and consisted of
straight out flying, landing at a different airport each day. I have
participated in three such safaris but, unfortunately, could never get
more than one pair of pilots sharing one glider to go along. We've done
those by ground launch or using a self-launcher.

At Moriarty we've discussed taking a tow plane and a group of gliders
and heading out on a week-long trip but, to date, it's not gotten
further than the talking stage. I recall reading of border to border
flights back in the '80s and I'd do that in a heartbeat if it could be
organized. I know a few new pilots who would jump at the chance to
participate in that! I imagine starting at Alamogordo, NM or El Paso,
TX and flying north to a preplanned location to rest and continue the
next day. We could continue to the Canadian border in WY or MT, rest
up, and head for home. That might take two weeks! The biggest problem
I see is getting to commit to using their vacation. For my money this
would be a lot more fun than returning home each day as in a contest.

On 8/16/2015 9:40 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 10:09:43 AM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
From another thread recently, thought it might be a good topic to paw around with everyone...

For me, soaring is great fun. I've been doing it consistently for about 5 years now. I've met a bunch of amazing, great, kind people and have learned a tremendous amount about the sport (light years left to go). Thru and thru, as a group, soaring pilots, their friends and family are among the nicest, smartest most interesting people I have ever met. I am attracted to this immensely.

Part of the reason I have devoted time and energy to the sport is that am truly inspired by what competition/cross country pilots are capable of doing in gliders. I am still fascinated by it and want to be a part of it. This, for me, was huge. Glider pilots are amazing pilots, PERIOD.

I probably never would have truly learned of the sport (and what it really is at the highest levels), or been so attracted to it if my dad was not involved. Having a family member with a high performance glider, flying it regularly and promoting how amazing the sport could be all the time was key. Having access to a high performance glider and a group of local friends who could mentor me and take me out on cross country flights shortly after I got my license was the key moment. Would I have got my license if the motivation was just flying around the airport? Probably not.

Those experiences flying with the Ionio boys on short, mentored cross country's "set the hook" for me and eventually led to me buying a glider so that I could fly with everyone rather than leave my dad back at the airport whenever I was flying. Of course once I bought my first glider so I could fly with this gang regularly, the learning curve grew dramatically. The hook set deeper. And so on.

Flying clubs are important to US soaring "health" I suppose but they also seem to lack in areas. They often don't have much to offer in terms of even moderate performance gliders. They often don't promote or in some cases even allow cross country.

It seems that European clubs are more into cross country which is more challenging and more rewarding than local flight, which I think gets old after a year or so. If some inspirational figure is not actively encouraging and facilitating cross country glider flight (the whole point of the sport I think) at that key moment in a glider pilots career, I think they come to the conclusion that they have checked the box and move on.

Obviously without glider clubs more focused on taking pilots into cross country levels, one has to have the financial means to do it on their own. I dont see that as a real problem as numerous 40:1 gliders are available for the same price as a small sailboat or powerboat, which almost everybody seems to have these days (jet skis, snowmobiles, etc). It's a matter of priority. Gliders I suppose are for one person (usually) where a boat (or other rec toy) is for the whole family.

But Europe seems to have an entirely different dynamic with respect to soaring. More youth, larger numbers, etc. U.S. numbers have been steadily declining for 25 years.

One thing I learned in business school. It's often better to adopt successful competitors methods even if at first you don't fully understand them yet. Our clubs (and the SSA) should be talking to European clubs and picking their brains for advise. I wonder how many have actually done that. Perhaps take a trip to Europe on summer and spend a few weeks with a successful club, talk to the people, etc.

Oddly, my flying is at a location that actually IDs itself as IONIA NON CLUB. They don't like the politics. :-).

The rules is a small thing overall but debating the rules is an important thing in terms of competition pilots. My suggestions usually would make getting into competition soaring simpler for the new pilot. I do think our rules are too complicated, but the rule makers are all GREAT PEOPLE, working hard and want nothing but the best for our sport.

Sean
7T
We have been working on generating new cross country pilots at our club (Chicago Glider Club) over the last several years and have had some success with the following approach:

1. When new members without glider licenses join the club and seek instruction we try to introduce them to the idea of flying cross country early in the training process. My initial training flights, when the conditions permit, include taking the pilot to nearby airports, using them as turnpoints and getting the new pilot (many are already airplane rated) used to the idea that we don't just stay at the home field, and that modern gliders have the range to safely fly cross country. We have four airports within 10 miles, so its not much of a trip, but it seems to affect attitudes and expectations in a positive manner.

2. Cross-country and racing is a normal weekend activity at our club when the weather permits, so all members see that a group of us are flying cross-country regularly.

3. We have a training program focused on cross country that includes talks by experienced pilots on relevant issues, followed by practice with an experienced cross-country pilot who is usually a CFIG. We have three club two-place gliders (2 ASK-21s and a Duo Discus), so we have the equipment to do this. We have had good turnout at these events, both from new and older club members, many of whom have not been flying cross-country. After a short talk we fly 1-1/2 hour local tasks and evaluate the results. (I have found, by the way, that the biggest problem, so far, in getting people proficient to fly cross-country is thermaling ability.)

4. Apart from the cross-country flights with instructors, we have arranged for practice off-field landings at a near by RLA with a friendly owner. The pilots fly one of the two place glider to the RLA with an instructor in the backseat. They also tow out to go back to the glider club. This got a lot of interest and was appreciated by people who had never landed anywhere but at our glider club. Its a good project on days when the weather is too weak for cross-country.

5. Our club also has an ASW-24, and we encourage pilots to use it for cross-country flying.

6. We set cross-country tasks on most weekends when the weather cooperates (very few this year). If there are new cross-country pilots flying, the task options include a local MAT that won't take the pilot more than 10 miles or so from our airport, but allow visiting up to five other turnpoints. We encourage people to turn in their flight logs and we post the results, usually with comments from the pilots who flew tasks that day.

Interest has been good and several members who were not flying cross country when they started are now doing so. Mike Shakman

--
Dan Marotta

One thing that's worked, and has been a lot of fun, is having a task set for each flying day. After the task is flown, we get together the next morning, compare the scores, watch all the flights on see you, and get some coaching from the experienced xc pilots. It's a lot of fun to "compete" against your friends. We get to fly places we might not otherwise go, and it's fun to learn from each other. At the soaring club of Houston we are fortunate that we have a cross country mentor willing to do all of the task setting, scoring, getting the projector ready etc.

Enthusiasm

I will offer two ideas:

First. Next week the UK Junior Nationals will be run at Aston Down. There
are over 50 entries and a load of two seaters being flown by pundits to
show those who are not yet ready for competition how it goes. This is down
to a few very enthusiastic pundits who are keen to grow the sport and pass
on their knowledge and enthusiasm to the next generation and to a few of
the juniors themselves who have thrown their efforts into enthusing other
youngsters.

There is a junior web site, great junior videos, 'how to' stuff etc. See
http://www.juniorgliding.co.uk Our BGA is also enthusiastic and supportive
with competition subsidies and training bursaries for the young.

I have never known the junior scene to be more active. Let the youngsters
loose and they will do it.

Second: Make cross country flying less intimidating for newbies and low
handicap gliders at club level. Handicap distance tasks allow all to fly
together at the same time, in the same air, in a collective spirit. We set
these every weekend at Booker and they get flown in gliders from 89 to 112
handicap. One member who flies a Pegase and hasn't flown more than 100k on
her own tasks for years flew nearly 300k the other week and landed with a
huge smile.

For newbies you can give them an extra 5 handicap points to allow them to
play on a more level ground.

Take a look at www.handicaptask.uk I have even made it US friendly! Sean,
please have a look if you are seeking ideas.

Jim

On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 11:09:43 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
From another thread recently, thought it might be a good topic to paw around with everyone...

For me, soaring is great fun. I've been doing it consistently for about 5 years now. I've met a bunch of amazing, great, kind people and have learned a tremendous amount about the sport (light years left to go). Thru and thru, as a group, soaring pilots, their friends and family are among the nicest, smartest most interesting people I have ever met. I am attracted to this immensely.

Part of the reason I have devoted time and energy to the sport is that am truly inspired by what competition/cross country pilots are capable of doing in gliders. I am still fascinated by it and want to be a part of it. This, for me, was huge. Glider pilots are amazing pilots, PERIOD.

I probably never would have truly learned of the sport (and what it really is at the highest levels), or been so attracted to it if my dad was not involved. Having a family member with a high performance glider, flying it regularly and promoting how amazing the sport could be all the time was key.. Having access to a high performance glider and a group of local friends who could mentor me and take me out on cross country flights shortly after I got my license was the key moment. Would I have got my license if the motivation was just flying around the airport? Probably not.

Those experiences flying with the Ionio boys on short, mentored cross country's "set the hook" for me and eventually led to me buying a glider so that I could fly with everyone rather than leave my dad back at the airport whenever I was flying. Of course once I bought my first glider so I could fly with this gang regularly, the learning curve grew dramatically. The hook set deeper. And so on.

Flying clubs are important to US soaring "health" I suppose but they also seem to lack in areas. They often don't have much to offer in terms of even moderate performance gliders. They often don't promote or in some cases even allow cross country.

It seems that European clubs are more into cross country which is more challenging and more rewarding than local flight, which I think gets old after a year or so. If some inspirational figure is not actively encouraging and facilitating cross country glider flight (the whole point of the sport I think) at that key moment in a glider pilots career, I think they come to the conclusion that they have checked the box and move on.

Obviously without glider clubs more focused on taking pilots into cross country levels, one has to have the financial means to do it on their own. I dont see that as a real problem as numerous 40:1 gliders are available for the same price as a small sailboat or powerboat, which almost everybody seems to have these days (jet skis, snowmobiles, etc). It's a matter of priority. Gliders I suppose are for one person (usually) where a boat (or other rec toy) is for the whole family.

But Europe seems to have an entirely different dynamic with respect to soaring. More youth, larger numbers, etc. U.S. numbers have been steadily declining for 25 years.

One thing I learned in business school. It's often better to adopt successful competitors methods even if at first you don't fully understand them yet. Our clubs (and the SSA) should be talking to European clubs and picking their brains for advise. I wonder how many have actually done that. Perhaps take a trip to Europe on summer and spend a few weeks with a successful club, talk to the people, etc.

Oddly, my flying is at a location that actually IDs itself as IONIA NON CLUB. They don't like the politics. :-).

The rules is a small thing overall but debating the rules is an important thing in terms of competition pilots. My suggestions usually would make getting into competition soaring simpler for the new pilot. I do think our rules are too complicated, but the rule makers are all GREAT PEOPLE, working hard and want nothing but the best for our sport.

Sean
7T

Morning Sean,

I think your comments about mirroring european soaring clubs definitely has some merit. At harris hill, I think a huge thing for our club is that we have a discus CS, and a Duo Discus, as well as a number of pilots who are active in cross country as a baseline. Even if your father/grandfather is not involved in this case, you still end up with access to high performance equipment, and people to guide you along.

my first cross country was with roy mcmaster in our duo. after about 5-7 cross country flights on my own, i flew a HUGE flight (for me at the time) with tim welles and he offered some pointers. i did the flying, he critiqued, and i saw that if i made the right decisions i could go fly cross country all afternoon too.

also, harris hill offers two gliders to junior members free of hourly charge: the discus CS and the SGS 1-34. for those reasons, we are able to expose our junior members to flying and make it very attractive to them from a cost standpoint. so we're getting a younger crowd involved. we have four members under 25 right now who have completed silver badges, and several more who are on their way with one or two of the legs done. The majority of them aren't from soaring families. bottom line, make it affordable, and give them access to the equipment. No way could my dad have afforded normal flying lessons for me when i was a teen. harris hill offered instructional flights when i was junior 13 years ago for 3 bucks a flight. that was offset with commercial rides, and subsidized by senior member rates.

as far as drawing adults to the cross country aspect, it needs to be turnkey, people need the have the ability to advance quickly if they want so that they dont get bored. a good training program is helpful. we do instruction every wednesday night during the flying months so that senior members can get focused weekly instruction. in the winter we do a condor night, where we set up a server and 6-8 members join and fly a cross country flight. we always debrief those and talk about the decision making. it gets everyone involved juiced up for spring.

the formula is the same in your example as mine. there needs to be equipment available, and mentors available. one reason we see people getting into cross country at harris hill is because there are several people who go on a regular basis. it creates a cross country environment. tim welles (W3) is an ironman and flies more regularly, and and in poorer weather, than most. i think it takes a catalyst in that regard. you need people who can shepherd and motivate others.