Does anyone use a tug tow hook that releases automatically whenglider kites?

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 5:39:04 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 12:41:48 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
Is it a matter of the FAA and insurance underwriters making any change to the status quo cost-prohibitive? What sort of gauntlet does one need to run?


On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 5:39:04 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
Bwahahahaha!!!!
ROTFLMFAO!
Gasp, sigh, that just really made my day!

http://i.imgur.com/wPwWj.gif

On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 6:26:21 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:

http://i.imgur.com/wPwWj.gif

Cute!

Seriously, the biggest problem is probably just plain cost. Everybody knows the Schweizer tow releases are junk and dangerous - but (like the Schweizer gliders) they are cheap and available. So we use them. There is a much better and safer replacement - the Tost - but it cost so much that when you try to get a club interested in replacing their Schweizer hooks with Tost hooks you get laughed out of the club house.

So for now we are stuck with solving (a real but fortunately rare) the problem with better awareness of what can happen (by both the tugger and tuggee) and better training.

Now, if anybody has any spare explosive bolts laying around, we could probably come up with some kind of emergency release that the tow pilot could activate under any condition...(just don't let your local FAA guy see it).

Cheers,

Kirk
66

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 8:43:35 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 6:26:21 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote: http://i.imgur.com/wPwWj.gif Cute! Seriously, the biggest problem is probably just plain cost. Everybody knows the Schweizer tow releases are junk and dangerous - but (like the Schweizer gliders) they are cheap and available. So we use them. There is a much better and safer replacement - the Tost - but it cost so much that when you try to get a club interested in replacing their Schweizer hooks with Tost hooks you get laughed out of the club house.. So for now we are stuck with solving (a real but fortunately rare) the problem with better awareness of what can happen (by both the tugger and tuggee) and better training. Now, if anybody has any spare explosive bolts laying around, we could probably come up with some kind of emergency release that the tow pilot could activate under any condition...(just don't let your local FAA guy see it). Cheers, Kirk 66

The only explosive allowed in our tugs is the tow pilot.
UH

Ain't no doubt about how quickly the tug gets upset when the glider decides
to fly hither and yon.

My event involved a highly experienced retired FAA guy with type ratings in
every aircraft imagineable. It was his first flight in a borrowed HP-14
and, during the departure turn at about 700' AGL he flew high and wide to
the right, outside of the turn. Before I could reach the release lever,
he'd turned hard left and dove across the tail of the Pawnee wrapping the
tow rope around his left wing and, after it cut the top and bottom skins of
the wing clear to the spar, cutting the rope in two in the middle. The
final yank on the rope caused the tug to yaw hard right and pitch slightly
up (from about 45 degrees down).

Not realizing how close he'd come to killing us both, he proceeded to have a
nice 4-hour flight. After landing he asked our line guy to help with
derigging. That's when Steve called him to the left side of the glider and
pointed out the damage.

I had a few words with him, too.

"Colin Wray" wrote in message
...
Chris Rollings wrote:

Third test: Terrier Tow-Plane, K 8b on C of G hook. I pitched the glider
about 25 degrees nose up. The glider continued to pitch up fairly rapidly
(as at the start of a winch launch) and substantial forward movement of
the
stick only slightly slowed the rate of pitch. The glider achieved about
45
degrees nose up, speed increased rapidly from 55 knots to about 75 knots
and the glider was pulled back towards level flight (again as at the top
of
a winch launch). I released at that point. The entire sequence of events
occupied a VERY short period of time (subsequently measured as 2 - 3
seconds). The Tow Pilot reported a marked deceleration and start of
pitching down which he attempted to contain by moving the stick back; this
was followed immediately by a very rapid pitch down accompanied by
significant negative â?oGâ??. The tow-plane finished up about 70 degrees
nose down and took about 400 feet to recover to level flight. We both
found the experience alarming, even undertaken deliberately at 4000 feet.
Our conclusion was that the combination of the initial pitch down and the
upward deflection of the elevator caused the horizontal
stabilizer/elevator
combination to stall and the abrupt removal of the down-force it provided
caused the subsequent very rapid pitch-down and negative â?oGâ??.

I was the pilot of a tug involved in exactly the scenario described by
Chris above. The culprit was a K6 using a belly hook, and the only
reason I am here to tell the tale is that it occurred at 400ft. It was
actually a dual tow with the K6 on the short rope and a K13 on the
long rope in low-tow position. The K6 had recovered from some earlier
excursions, but all seemed to be going well before it happened.

The "up-ending" was instantaneous, there was no way to have reached
any type of release before the rope broke, and in any case I can
assure you that when descending vertically on full throttle at 400ft,
your first reaction it to close the throttle.

Our CFI in the K13 said he hadn't seen the underside of a PA18 in plan
form quite so close before.

In those days we used to store spare ropes and things behind the rear
seat of the PA18, and my situation was not improved by the whole lot
coming forward and landing on my head and all over the cockpit.

A good friend of mine later died towing a K6 with a PA18, which
incident quite probably was the trigger for Chris' investigations.

I think we could combine an optical target designator from an air to air missile, and some explosive bolts, and come up with a solution here, loose the target lock with a speed above 20 Kts, and ring in the hook, and you fire the bolts. Maybe we could get DARPA to fund it. Forget the flashing light on the back of the tow plane, we will use the flare system from a C130 to let everyone know what just happened. I'm in, anybody know how to write a grant proposal? Explosive bolts, missile parts, really cool flares, what's not to like?

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 11:43:18 AM UTC-6, SF wrote:
I think we could combine an optical target designator from an air to air missile, and some explosive bolts, and come up with a solution here, loose the target lock with a speed above 20 Kts, and ring in the hook, and you fire the bolts. Maybe we could get DARPA to fund it. Forget the flashing light on the back of the tow plane, we will use the flare system from a C130 to let everyone know what just happened. I'm in, anybody know how to write a grant proposal? Explosive bolts, missile parts, really cool flares, what's not to like?

And we mount it with a Picatinny rail - painted desert camo.

Totally tacticool!

Kirk

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 12:03:17 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
Ain't no doubt about how quickly the tug gets upset when the glider decides

to fly hither and yon.



My event involved a highly experienced retired FAA guy with type ratings in

every aircraft imagineable. It was his first flight in a borrowed HP-14

and, during the departure turn at about 700' AGL he flew high and wide to

the right, outside of the turn. Before I could reach the release lever,

he'd turned hard left and dove across the tail of the Pawnee wrapping the

tow rope around his left wing and, after it cut the top and bottom skins of

the wing clear to the spar, cutting the rope in two in the middle. The

final yank on the rope caused the tug to yaw hard right and pitch slightly

up (from about 45 degrees down).

Yikes. Over confidence and diminished capacity are a bad combination.

Annual flight reviews would head off more accidents than better tow hooks.

On Monday, February 10, 2014 7:49:58 AM UTC-6, kirk.stant wrote:
On Sunday, February 9, 2014 8:47:20 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:

On Sunday, February 9, 2014 8:58:56 PM UTC-5, Mike the Strike wrote:



The solution is simpler than that - it's called "low tow" - used in more civilized parts of the world.







How do you do a low tow when both glider and tug are still in ground effect at launch?



If you are both in low tow you aren't kiting. Then, when the tow plane starts climbing, you ease down to the low tow position. No big deal.



Apparently standard ops in Australia - and some other "civilized" countries.



However, since kiting upsets are pretty much limited to older, low wing loading gliders, the problem is somewhat limited. In the US, my guess is that it is a threat from mainly 1-26s and 2-33s. My solution: careful briefing of 1-26 pilots, and chop up all the remaining 2-33s.



Kirk

66

My KA6CR lite to fly high - I have to keep the stick forward on tow -

ZEN

The camo paint would not be approved for use in CA or NY. Too evil looking,
don'tcha know... It would probably be OK in NJ as long as the release
mechanism did not incorporate a "hollow point".


"kirk.stant" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 11:43:18 AM UTC-6, SF wrote:
I think we could combine an optical target designator from an air to air
missile, and some explosive bolts, and come up with a solution here, loose
the target lock with a speed above 20 Kts, and ring in the hook, and you
fire the bolts. Maybe we could get DARPA to fund it. Forget the
flashing light on the back of the tow plane, we will use the flare system
from a C130 to let everyone know what just happened. I'm in, anybody know
how to write a grant proposal? Explosive bolts, missile parts, really
cool flares, what's not to like?

And we mount it with a Picatinny rail - painted desert camo.

Totally tacticool!

Kirk

Now don't try to increase the number of "flight reviews" we must endure,
Young Grasshopper.

It's more about currency than reviews. Fly more and you'll be amazed at how
much more competent and knowledgeable you are.

"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 12:03:17 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
Ain't no doubt about how quickly the tug gets upset when the glider
decides

to fly hither and yon.



My event involved a highly experienced retired FAA guy with type ratings
in

every aircraft imagineable. It was his first flight in a borrowed HP-14

and, during the departure turn at about 700' AGL he flew high and wide to

the right, outside of the turn. Before I could reach the release lever,

he'd turned hard left and dove across the tail of the Pawnee wrapping the

tow rope around his left wing and, after it cut the top and bottom skins
of

the wing clear to the spar, cutting the rope in two in the middle. The

final yank on the rope caused the tug to yaw hard right and pitch
slightly

up (from about 45 degrees down).

Yikes. Over confidence and diminished capacity are a bad combination.

Annual flight reviews would head off more accidents than better tow hooks.