#1 Jet of World War II

.The fact that the B-26 was used on
relatively short range missions, usually in areas where the US held
near-total
air supremacy, speaks volumes.

Bull****!

Which part of that did you find disagreeable?

The Mosquito and B-17 went hundreds of miles
into the heart of the Nazi defenses at a time when no one in their right
mind
would think of sending a force of Marauders after the same target.


No comment at all on that. Well, I guess that is the same as agreement, since
what I said was true.

I think this is getting silly - all three of these aircraft, and dozens of
other types, cooperated to help overwhelm the LW.

This is a discussion group. And comparing aircraft is what this thread is all
about. In fact it is what most posts here are all about. Get used to it.

After six years posting here, I am 'used to it'. What is difficult to get used
to is your opinion that yours is the only view that can possibly be correct or
valid, so you have to take out your aggression on whoever disagrees, however
politely they do so. I guess there is no point in trying to explain it, but
what occurs is that folks are less and less willing to even discuss things with
you. Just sad, because I for one would enjoy a meaningful dialogue with
someone of your experience without being insulted every time we don't agree
with you.

There is no need to
belittle
one excellent aircraft to bolster the reputation of another excellent
aircraft!

That is just what you have done in your post above.

Its precisely what you have been doing for as long as I've been here. I was
replying point by point to your comments, ALL belittling the Mosquito and any
other type that doesn't fit in your log book.

The B-26 remains my favorite US bomber of the war. It was a great aircraft,
with limitations that were well understood. So was the Mosquito.

I need to pay attention to the way you deal with folks because in the future,
I'll be in the same situation - people will be asking for my opinion about
things in the aviation side of the cold war, and I have to weigh my personal
experiences against the information I was not privy to at the time. On top of
that, I will have to weigh my biases carefully, in order to provide the next
generation of 'wannabees' and 'you weren't theres' with a source of information
that doesn't demean someone simply for not sharing my particular life
experience.

v/r
Gordon

that the Mosquito was the only air threat that conventional
forces were simply never able to overcome.

One wonders about the potential of the Douglas Mixmaster for the very same
reasons.

Well, that one does prove that the jerries didn't have the market cornered on
aerial oddities!

v/r
Gordon

I apologize, Art. That was not intended as a posting and my intent was to
email that to you directly.

Gordon

On 19 Jul 2003 17:54:40 GMT, nt (Gordon) wrote:


that the Mosquito was the only air threat that conventional
forces were simply never able to overcome.

One wonders about the potential of the Douglas Mixmaster for the very same
reasons.

Well, that one does prove that the jerries didn't have the market cornered on
aerial oddities!

Interesting design, one wonders how that large contra set @ the tail would
have handled flak damage though.


greg

--
$ReplyAddress =~ s#\@.*$##; # Delete everything after the '@'
Alley Gator. With those hypnotic big green eyes
Alley Gator. She'll make you 'fraid 'em
She'll chew you up, ain't no lie

Mike Dargan wrote:



Keith Willshaw wrote:

"Sunny" wrote in message
...

"Corey C. Jordan"
wrote in
message

snip

Just as an aside, the Mossie could actually carry a
bigger bomb load than
the B17. :-)


No it couldnt

a late model Mosquito with a bulged bay could carry a
4000 lb bomb load,
most Mosquito's carried 2000 lb bomb loads

The max load a B-17G could carry was 9,600 lbs with a
more
normal load being 6000 lbs

Wasn't the maximum, I presume with limited fuel, crew, and
weapons, 17,600 lbs?

Well, theoretically it could carry 20,800 lb., and
supposedly did so on a few missions (Caidin makes that claim
in "Flying Forts," but I've never seen a more reputable
source back that up). The total you mention equates to 6 x
1,600 lb. AP bombs internally, plus a pair of 4,000 GP bombs
externally, carried one per wing root rack. I very much
doubt such a load was ever carried operationally -- on the
few occasions where a pair of 4,000 lb. GP bombs were
carried (or the 4,500 lb. AP Disney Rocket bombs), that was
the entire load and it was to fairly short range targets.

The reason it could carry 6 (actually, eight) x 1,600 lb.
bombs internally was because they were AP, and thus much
slimmer than an equivalent weight GP or MC bomb. It could
(probably; there's some dispute about whether the racks were
later modified) only carry a pair of 2,000 lb GP bombs
internally, due to rack and space limits. More typical
loads for German targets would be up to twelve 500 lb. GP or
up to six 1,000 lb. GP internally, or a bunch of
incendiaries, plus one or two smoke marker bombs if lead or
deputy lead of a squadron/group/wing. Early on in the ETO
they were still using the older 300/600/1,100 lb. M30 series
bombs, but they quickly used those up (although IIRR, ETO
B-26s were still using the 300 lbers into the third quarter
of 1943. Anyone with Roger Freemans' "Mighty Eighth War
Diary" can confirm the date of last use) and they used the
more modern 250/500/1,000 lb M40 series after that. For
most longer range missions to heavily defended industrial
targets a B-17 would normally carry a bombload of 4-5,000
lb. Early 8th AF ops to French targets might carry eight
600 lbers. And of course, when attacking airfields or
similar targets, they'd carry a bunch of lighter frag bombs.

Guy

P.S. Text only, please.

Guy Alcala wrote in message .. .
Mike Dargan wrote:


On B-17s,

Wasn't the maximum, I presume with limited fuel, crew, and
weapons, 17,600 lbs?

Well, theoretically it could carry 20,800 lb., and
supposedly did so on a few missions (Caidin makes that claim
in "Flying Forts," but I've never seen a more reputable
source back that up). The total you mention equates to 6 x
1,600 lb. AP bombs internally, plus a pair of 4,000 GP bombs
externally, carried one per wing root rack. I very much
doubt such a load was ever carried operationally -- on the
few occasions where a pair of 4,000 lb. GP bombs were
carried (or the 4,500 lb. AP Disney Rocket bombs), that was
the entire load and it was to fairly short range targets.

The reason it could carry 6 (actually, eight) x 1,600 lb.
bombs internally was because they were AP, and thus much
slimmer than an equivalent weight GP or MC bomb. It could
(probably; there's some dispute about whether the racks were
later modified) only carry a pair of 2,000 lb GP bombs
internally, due to rack and space limits. More typical
loads for German targets would be up to twelve 500 lb. GP or
up to six 1,000 lb. GP internally, or a bunch of
incendiaries, plus one or two smoke marker bombs if lead or
deputy lead of a squadron/group/wing. Early on in the ETO
they were still using the older 300/600/1,100 lb. M30 series
bombs, but they quickly used those up (although IIRR, ETO
B-26s were still using the 300 lbers into the third quarter
of 1943. Anyone with Roger Freemans' "Mighty Eighth War
Diary" can confirm the date of last use) and they used the
more modern 250/500/1,000 lb M40 series after that.

Freeman notes the old style bombs were largely used by
September 1942 and were replaced by the Army Navy
AN series, the M30 100 pounds, M31 300 pounds, M43
500 pounds, M44 1,000 pounds, M34 2,000 pounds.
In late 1943 came the M57 250 pounds, M64 500 pounds,
M65 1,000 pounds and M66 2,000 pounds.

There were a small number of M56 4,000 pound bombs
but "there is no record of M56s being delivered on combat
missions" by the 8th Air Force.

In the war diary Freeman usually gives the types of bombs
dropped until the end of 1943, a quick skim indicates the
heavies last used them on 9 September 1943, the mediums
on 9 October 1943, assuming usage stopped in 1943.

The USAAF statistical digest contradicts the Freeman
figures, table 138, bombs dropped by type of bomb
1943 to 1945 in the war against Germany says the USAAF
did not use the 300 pound bomb in Europe from 1 January
1943 onward and only 712 600 pound bombs, all in 1943.
If the digest is correct the USAAF dropped more Soviet 550
pound bombs, 1,645 in 1944.

Of the 6,284,271 HE bombs recorded as being used 156
were 4,500 pounds, 48,575 were 2,000 pounds.

There were 1,122 Armour Piercing 1,600 pound bombs
used, all in 1944.

In table 139, bombs dropped by type versus Japan HE
bombs include 1,220 4,000 pound, all in 1945, 750 300
pound, 688 in 1945 (yes 5), 188,198 550 pound, yes 550.

Of the 1,677,749 bombs recorded as being used 581,977
were 100 pounds.

No 1,600 pound bombs used against Japan, but 31 2,000
pound torpedoes were used in 1945.

Back to Freeman, gives an example for the B-17F and G bomb
load as 6 1,600 pound bombs internally and 2 4,000 pound
bombs externally,. Freeman's bomb bay diagram indicates
8 1,600 pound bombs could be stowed, which presumably
means someone somewhere took off with 20,800 pounds
of bombs, and probably little else, hence the confusion over
maximum bombloads. His reproductions of Boeing diagrams
show indicate there were 42 bomb shackles in 4 racks inside
the bomb bay. Shackles10 and 31 were able to carry 2,000
pound bombs, 8, 11,16, 20, 29, 32, 37, 41 for 1,600 pound
bombs. See the B-17 Flying Fortress Story, Freeman and
David Osborne.

B-17 recommended cruise in the 8th air force 150 to 160
mph IAS, the B-24 was 170 to 175 mph IAS.

The late model Mosquitoes could carry up to 5,000 pounds of
bombs. In theory they could carry this to Berlin from England,
at most economical cruise and with minimal fuel reserves.
Hence the use of the wing stations for fuel tanks. The weight
with 4,000 bomb load and 2 50 gallon underwing fuel tanks
came out at 24,152 pounds, and some versions with H2S
fitted look like they topped out at 25,501 pounds. For the
mark XVI the LNSF recommendation was maximum take
off weight 25,200 pounds on a 1,600 yard runway.

For
most longer range missions to heavily defended industrial
targets a B-17 would normally carry a bombload of 4-5,000
lb. Early 8th AF ops to French targets might carry eight
600 lbers. And of course, when attacking airfields or
similar targets, they'd carry a bunch of lighter frag bombs.

Using the USAAF statistical digest, the heavy bombers
in the European theatre of operations dropped 714,719 tons
of bombs in the course of 274,921 effective sorties., or 2.6
tons per sortie, 5,200 pounds average bomb load. Also
according to the digest 1,520,209 out of the 6,284,291
bombs the USAAF dropped from 1943 in the war against
Germany were 100 pounders. In addition to the HE bombs
some 756,304 120 pound fragmentation clusters were used,
as well as incendiaries, individual fragmentation bombs and
so on.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

Geoffrey Sinclair wrote:

Guy Alcala wrote in message .. .
Mike Dargan wrote:

On B-17s,

Wasn't the maximum, I presume with limited fuel, crew, and
weapons, 17,600 lbs?

Well, theoretically it could carry 20,800 lb., and
supposedly did so on a few missions (Caidin makes that claim
in "Flying Forts," but I've never seen a more reputable
source back that up). The total you mention equates to 6 x
1,600 lb. AP bombs internally, plus a pair of 4,000 GP bombs
externally, carried one per wing root rack. I very much
doubt such a load was ever carried operationally -- on the
few occasions where a pair of 4,000 lb. GP bombs were
carried (or the 4,500 lb. AP Disney Rocket bombs), that was
the entire load and it was to fairly short range targets.

The reason it could carry 6 (actually, eight) x 1,600 lb.
bombs internally was because they were AP, and thus much
slimmer than an equivalent weight GP or MC bomb. It could
(probably; there's some dispute about whether the racks were
later modified) only carry a pair of 2,000 lb GP bombs
internally, due to rack and space limits. More typical
loads for German targets would be up to twelve 500 lb. GP or
up to six 1,000 lb. GP internally, or a bunch of
incendiaries, plus one or two smoke marker bombs if lead or
deputy lead of a squadron/group/wing. Early on in the ETO
they were still using the older 300/600/1,100 lb. M30 series
bombs, but they quickly used those up (although IIRR, ETO
B-26s were still using the 300 lbers into the third quarter
of 1943. Anyone with Roger Freemans' "Mighty Eighth War
Diary" can confirm the date of last use) and they used the
more modern 250/500/1,000 lb M40 series after that.

Freeman notes the old style bombs were largely used by
September 1942 and were replaced by the Army Navy
AN series, the M30 100 pounds, M31 300 pounds, M43
500 pounds, M44 1,000 pounds, M34 2,000 pounds.
In late 1943 came the M57 250 pounds, M64 500 pounds,
M65 1,000 pounds and M66 2,000 pounds.

Thanks for the details. The M60 series, according to Friedman ("U.S. Naval
Weapons"), were essentially the M40 series with some modifications (improved
waterproofing?) so they could be used as depth bombs when given the appropriate
fuses.

There were a small number of M56 4,000 pound bombs
but "there is no record of M56s being delivered on combat
missions" by the 8th Air Force.

Couldn't remember for sure if there'd been any combat use in the ETO. ISTR
Freeman had a photo showing a pair mounted on a B-17.

In the war diary Freeman usually gives the types of bombs
dropped until the end of 1943, a quick skim indicates the
heavies last used them on 9 September 1943

Last used which?

, the mediums
on 9 October 1943, assuming usage stopped in 1943.

What date were the mediums reassigned from 8th Support Command to 9th AF (and
thus no longer appear in Freeman)?

The USAAF statistical digest contradicts the Freeman
figures, table 138, bombs dropped by type of bomb
1943 to 1945 in the war against Germany says the USAAF
did not use the 300 pound bomb in Europe from 1 January
1943 onward and only 712 600 pound bombs, all in 1943.

I wonder what that "350" lb. bomb used in 1945 (only 12) was; possibly a typo. I
suspect Freeman may be right in the case of the 300 lbers. IIRR there's a late
1943 or early '44 issue of "Impact" which describes 8th AF B-26 missions in 1943,
and clearly states the number of 300 lb. bombs dropped on the target (might have
been one of the missions to the Le Trait shipyards. I'll have to get to the
library to find the details). Then again, IIRR the "300 lb. bomb" weighed less
than 300 lb. while the "250 lb. bomb" weighed more than 250 lb., so maybe the two
types were combined in the table.

If the digest is correct the USAAF dropped more Soviet 550
pound bombs, 1,645 in 1944.

The latter presumably on the shuttle missions.

Of the 6,284,271 HE bombs recorded as being used 156
were 4,500 pounds, 48,575 were 2,000 pounds.

There were 1,122 Armour Piercing 1,600 pound bombs
used, all in 1944.

I'd sure like to know what the targets were for the AP bombs. I doubt they'd
have enough penetration for sub pens, and I don't think we ever attacked armored
ships with them (which is what they were designed for, by the Navy). Underground
factories or maybe railway tunnels?

In table 139, bombs dropped by type versus Japan HE
bombs include 1,220 4,000 pound, all in 1945, 750 300
pound, 688 in 1945 (yes 5), 188,198 550 pound, yes 550.

I'm guessing a typo in one or more of these tables.

Of the 1,677,749 bombs recorded as being used 581,977
were 100 pounds.

No 1,600 pound bombs used against Japan, but 31 2,000
pound torpedoes were used in 1945.

Back to Freeman, gives an example for the B-17F and G bomb
load as 6 1,600 pound bombs internally and 2 4,000 pound
bombs externally,. Freeman's bomb bay diagram indicates
8 1,600 pound bombs could be stowed, which presumably
means someone somewhere took off with 20,800 pounds
of bombs, and probably little else, hence the confusion over
maximum bombloads.

Personally, I very much doubt that anyone ever took off with this load. I
suspect it's more of a theoretical "well, if we loaded every station with the
maximum possible load, it would total this much" nonsense that is still common
today. I'd sure like to know exactly what the load is that allows an F-18A-D to
carry 17,000 lb. of ordnance.

His reproductions of Boeing diagrams
show indicate there were 42 bomb shackles in 4 racks inside
the bomb bay. Shackles10 and 31 were able to carry 2,000
pound bombs, 8, 11,16, 20, 29, 32, 37, 41 for 1,600 pound
bombs. See the B-17 Flying Fortress Story, Freeman and
David Osborne.

I think that's the same B-17F "Bomb Release Sequence Diagram" reproduced in
Jablonski's book "Flying Fortress", which is what I based my comments on. I have
this vague memory that the G shackles may have been different, but may be
thinking of the B-24 instead.

B-17 recommended cruise in the 8th air force 150 to 160
mph IAS, the B-24 was 170 to 175 mph IAS.

Agrees with pilot comments elsewhere.


The late model Mosquitoes could carry up to 5,000 pounds of
bombs. In theory they could carry this to Berlin from England,
at most economical cruise and with minimal fuel reserves.

snip rest

And AFAIK never did.

Guy

In article ,
Peter Twydell writes:
In article , Geoffrey Sinclair
writes
Guy Alcala wrote in message .. .
Mike Dargan wrote:


On B-17s,

snip
If the digest is correct the USAAF dropped more Soviet 550
pound bombs, 1,645 in 1944.

snip

Why were the USAAF using bombs from the USSR?

I'd expect that to be during the Shuttle Raids in '44, when
U.S. heavies from England or (IIRC) Italy), instead of returning to
their hme bases, pushed East to land at Soviet airfields tp refuel,
ream, and hit otherwise inaccessable targets on the way back.
It dodn't always work out so well. On one raid, teh B-17 formation
was shadowed by a German Ju 88, which pinpointed one of the turnaround
bases. It got well & truly plastered by hte Luftwaffe that night,
with the destruction of 30 some-odd B-17s,

Was it one of these that exploded in Austria last week, killing two EOD
personnel? I thought that the journalist had made a mistake when
referring to a US 550 pounder, but it looks as though they were right.

It's possible. It's also possible that it was a Soviet bomb dropped
by Soviet aircraft, since they were flying in the area in 1945. It's
also possible that the reporter flubbed a lbs/kg conversion, or used
the nearest metric equivalent. Euro Reporters are no more numerate or
"fact-tight" than ours are.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Subject: #1 Jet of World War II
From: "Geoffrey Sinclair"
Date: 7/20/03 11:33 PM Pacific

Back to Freeman, gives an example for the B-17F and G bomb
load as 6 1,600 pound bombs internally and 2 4,000 pound
bombs externally,. Freeman's bomb bay diagram indicates
8 1,600 pound bombs could be stowed, which presumably

No reference to Jellied Gasoline (Nepalm ) loads?. We flew at least one mission
with the Jellied gasoline drums in our bomb bay.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

I undesrtand that there was a later model Mosquito on the drawing boards in
1944 that could carry 100,000 pounds of bombs with a 10,000 mile range at 1500
miles per hour all the way. I understand one prototype was built , took off on
a test flight in 1944 and is still up there. But I don't really believe that
last part.Do you?


Well Art, funny you should mention that. I was out on the porch the
other night sucking back on a beer when the damned thing came flying by
at Mach 2. Coulda swore they waved at me too !!!!

Cheers...Chris