VISUAL AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION

"Vince" wrote in message
. ..
Arved Sandstrom wrote:
"Vince" wrote in message
...
[ SNIP ]
The hostility of the environment is clear. However Reconnaissance in an
environment where you cannot openly protect your aircraft and are not
establishing targets is not a battlefield.

Vince

???

That makes no sense.

AHS

A firing squad is a dangerous place but its not a "battlefield"

Vince

No, but overflights where you may be shot at does qualify. A battlefield (or
battle airspace) does not have as part of its definition that there needs to
be a formally declared war.

AHS

On May 4, 11:07 am, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 4, 8:48 am, Vince wrote:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...04/ai_n8949287
Better give names dates and places of deliberate overflights of
territory, not cruisng past the border (airspace)

Vince

Vince, you are lost. You can fiddle with whether a document is legit
or not and then turn around and say because a series of photographs
are examined at a CIA facility, actually manned by both CIA and
Pentagon people, that makes it a CIA job. Curtis Lemay made sure the
Strategic Air Command and secondarily the U.S. Air Force knew the
pilot that got those photos was a SAC pilot.

it was a CIA flight part of a long standing CIA operation

Still need to explain all

those F8Us that got shot at in a non-battlefield.

This is a separate issue
Francis Gary Powers was not in a battlefield

Around noon that day (October 27) a Lockheed U-2 piloted by Rudolph
Anderson was shot down by an SA-2 Guideline SAM emplacement,
increasing the stress in negotiations between the USSR and the U.S. It
was later learned that the decision to fire was made locally by a
Soviet commander on his own authority, although exactly who this was
is a matter of some debate.

Why should a "battlefield" shoot increase stress?
the reason is that its not a battlefield

Later that day, at about 3:41 p.m.,

several F8U Crusader aircraft on low-level recce missions were fired
upon, and one was hit by a 37 mm shell but managed to return to base.

Still not a "battlefield"

Vince

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/di...ba/cuba011.htm
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/di...ba/cuba013.htm
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/di...ba/cuba017.htm

Arved Sandstrom wrote:
"Vince" wrote in message
...
Tankfixer wrote:
In article ,
mumbled
TMOliver wrote:
"Vince" wrote ...

Spies get shot at all the time Doesn't make it a
"battlefield" they were CIA flights

I guess they forgot to tell you that those VFP-62 pilots were
in Navy flight suits flying USNavy a/c - big bright stars and
all - out of NAS Key West, JAX or off CVA decks.

TMO

the U-2 flights were cia
Yes, but did they take the photo's of the SA-2 sites from under
500 feet and in excess of 700 mph ?

No, they didn't
that is correct, but not the point of the discussion


the Military is much better equipped and focused on battlefield
reconnaissance than the CIA

The U-2 was overwhelmingly a CIA project at that time. Part of the
reason was that CIA missions violated the domestic or municipal law
of the countries we were overflying. A U-2 pilot on an overflight
was a spy and could be shot quite legally. No one could be
"ordered" on such a mission.

The low level flights were different. They were clearly
belligerent acts by the US armed forces. As an act of war, anyone
shot down was a POW.

Vince

The argument could be made that if you fly as high as a U-2,
especially back in the early days, were you really in national
airspace anyway? According to the FAI (Int'l Aeronautical Federation)
near-space starts at 75,000 feet, and according to Wiki the U-2R has
a service ceiling of 90,000 feet.


no question

if a plane can reach it is national airspace

(ad coelem)


To the best of my knowledge there isn't even any accepted altitude
below which one is in territorial airspace. Clearly there sort of
must be such an altitude, because nobody reasonably suggests that a
satellite at 250 km is violating anything. Also, you can't
necessarily say that airspace goes up to the level that balloons can
reach or suborbital craft can reach or airfoils can maintain lift,
because the definition of the maximum limits of a territorial sea is
12 miles, which in this day and age is highly artificial also.

AHS

there is a treaty on outer space. satellites are in outer space
But that is a long way up


Vince

Arved Sandstrom wrote:
"Vince" wrote in message
. ..
Arved Sandstrom wrote:
"Vince" wrote in message
...
[ SNIP ]
The hostility of the environment is clear. However Reconnaissance in an
environment where you cannot openly protect your aircraft and are not
establishing targets is not a battlefield.

Vince
???

That makes no sense.

AHS
A firing squad is a dangerous place but its not a "battlefield"

Vince

No, but overflights where you may be shot at does qualify. A battlefield (or
battle airspace) does not have as part of its definition that there needs to
be a formally declared war.

not it doesn't. an escaping prisoner may be shot at, does not make it a
"battlefield. Unless both sides can legally shoot its not a battlefield.

Vince

Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 4, 11:07 am, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 4, 8:48 am, Vince wrote:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...04/ai_n8949287
Better give names dates and places of deliberate overflights of
territory, not cruisng past the border (airspace)
Vince
Vince, you are lost. You can fiddle with whether a document is legit
or not and then turn around and say because a series of photographs
are examined at a CIA facility, actually manned by both CIA and
Pentagon people, that makes it a CIA job. Curtis Lemay made sure the
Strategic Air Command and secondarily the U.S. Air Force knew the
pilot that got those photos was a SAC pilot.
it was a CIA flight part of a long standing CIA operation

Still need to explain all

those F8Us that got shot at in a non-battlefield.
This is a separate issue
Francis Gary Powers was not in a battlefield

Around noon that day (October 27) a Lockheed U-2 piloted by Rudolph
Anderson was shot down by an SA-2 Guideline SAM emplacement,
increasing the stress in negotiations between the USSR and the U.S. It
was later learned that the decision to fire was made locally by a
Soviet commander on his own authority, although exactly who this was
is a matter of some debate.
Why should a "battlefield" shoot increase stress?
the reason is that its not a battlefield

Later that day, at about 3:41 p.m.,

several F8U Crusader aircraft on low-level recce missions were fired
upon, and one was hit by a 37 mm shell but managed to return to base.
Still not a "battlefield"

Vince

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/di...ba/cuba011.htm
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/di...ba/cuba013.htm
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/di...ba/cuba017.htm



The President approved the recommendation for a U-2 flight, to be
piloted by a Strategic Air Command pilot, or a military pilot attached
to the Central Intelligence Agency. document 11

it was up to the CIA to decide



It was then agreed that future information would be disseminated to
members of USIB, with appropriate instructions that only those
responsible for giving the President advice be given the information.
Furthermore, that within CIA circles a minimum number of experts be
informed. McCone stated there was no problem in CIA, that it was secure.
It was therefore agreed that the USIB members would be instructed to
restrict the information to their personal offices and fully and
currently inform the Chiefs of Staff, the Chairman, the Service
Secretaries and the Secretary of Defense document 12

This document clearly shows that the CIA was controlling the
distribution under the direct orders of the president. this is
completely inconsistent with it being a USAF operation


document 13 does not mention the U-2
Docuemnt 17 does not mention the U-2

Vince

On May 4, 11:52 am, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 4, 11:07 am, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 4, 8:48 am, Vince wrote:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...04/ai_n8949287
Better give names dates and places of deliberate overflights of
territory, not cruisng past the border (airspace)
Vince
Vince, you are lost. You can fiddle with whether a document is legit
or not and then turn around and say because a series of photographs
are examined at a CIA facility, actually manned by both CIA and
Pentagon people, that makes it a CIA job. Curtis Lemay made sure the
Strategic Air Command and secondarily the U.S. Air Force knew the
pilot that got those photos was a SAC pilot.
it was a CIA flight part of a long standing CIA operation

Still need to explain all

those F8Us that got shot at in a non-battlefield.
This is a separate issue
Francis Gary Powers was not in a battlefield

Around noon that day (October 27) a Lockheed U-2 piloted by Rudolph
Anderson was shot down by an SA-2 Guideline SAM emplacement,
increasing the stress in negotiations between the USSR and the U.S. It
was later learned that the decision to fire was made locally by a
Soviet commander on his own authority, although exactly who this was
is a matter of some debate.
Why should a "battlefield" shoot increase stress?
the reason is that its not a battlefield

Later that day, at about 3:41 p.m.,

several F8U Crusader aircraft on low-level recce missions were fired
upon, and one was hit by a 37 mm shell but managed to return to base.
Still not a "battlefield"

Vince

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/di...ba/cuba011.htm
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/di...ba/cuba013.htm
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/di...ba/cuba017.htm

The President approved the recommendation for a U-2 flight, to be
piloted by a Strategic Air Command pilot, or a military pilot attached
to the Central Intelligence Agency. document 11

it was up to the CIA to decide

It was then agreed that future information would be disseminated to
members of USIB, with appropriate instructions that only those
responsible for giving the President advice be given the information.
Furthermore, that within CIA circles a minimum number of experts be
informed. McCone stated there was no problem in CIA, that it was secure.
It was therefore agreed that the USIB members would be instructed to
restrict the information to their personal offices and fully and
currently inform the Chiefs of Staff, the Chairman, the Service
Secretaries and the Secretary of Defense document 12

This document clearly shows that the CIA was controlling the
distribution under the direct orders of the president. this is
completely inconsistent with it being a USAF operation

document 13 does not mention the U-2

But it does outline the options being considered.

Docuemnt 17 does not mention the U-2

But it does describe an operation (Ortsac) in which an invasion of a
Caribbean land is invaded.

The reason the switch from CIA to Air Forces is not discussed on a
document is that it was a violent and noisy fight between the CIA that
knew there were missile bases in Pinar del Rio and LeMay who wanted
his boys to get the glory. The Pentagon backed LeMay. Scoop Jackson's
memoirs, which I have quoted previously show that is the President who
makes the decision to use Air Force pilots for th slim possibility
they will be made priosners of war and not killed as spies.

Vince

Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 4, 11:52 am, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:


The reason the switch from CIA to Air Forces is not discussed on a
document is that it was a violent and noisy fight between the CIA
that knew there were missile bases in Pinar del Rio and LeMay who
wanted his boys to get the glory. The Pentagon backed LeMay. Scoop
Jackson's memoirs, which I have quoted previously show that is the
President who makes the decision to use Air Force pilots for th slim
possibility they will be made priosners of war and not killed as
spies.
Vince

now I know you are deeply confused:
here is the source you supplied for your claim

President Kennedy authorized an increase of U-2 missions over the
island. This increase in aerial reconnaissance coverage was caveated
with the limit that all future U-2 flights were to be conducted with
USAF personnel and U-2’s from the Strategic Air Command. (124) President
Kennedy ordered the change from CIA to USAF missions in case there were
any shootdowns or losses. His reasoning was that USAF pilots could be
protected and treated as Prisoners of War versus CIA pilots who would be
considered spies. (125)

here is the reference in the source

(125) Jackson, 116.

your cite has a bibliography

http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/77ColdWarS...01biblgphy.htm

the reference for the Kennedy claim is to

Jackson, Robert. High Cold War: Strategic Air Reconnaissance and the
Electronic Intelligence War. Somerset: Patrick Stephens Limited, 1998.

Not senator Jackson and his "memoirs" Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson died
in 1983

What is the source for Robert Jackson's claim ?

Vince

"Vince" wrote in message
. ..
Daryl Hunt wrote:
"Vince" wrote in message
...
TMOliver wrote:
"Vince" wrote ...

Spies get shot at all the time
Doesn't make it a "battlefield"
they were CIA flights

I guess they forgot to tell you that those VFP-62 pilots were in Navy
flight
suits flying USNavy a/c - big bright stars and all - out of NAS Key
West,
JAX or off CVA decks.

TMO


the U-2 flights were cia

No, Vince, they were Air Force. Although the data collected is "share"
with
the CIA and other branches of the Government.



Operational history

Though both the Air Force and the Navy would eventually fly the U-2, it
was originally a CIA operation. Due to the political implications of a
military aircraft invading a country's airspace, only CIA U-2s conducted
overflights. The pilots had to resign their military commissions before
joining the CIA as civilians, a process they referred to as "sheep
dipping".[1]

You show nothing to the fact that people resigned to fly for the CIA.
Meanwhile, you are confusing Air America that operated in Loas and Cambodia
where AF people took a 6 mo leave of absence from the service to serve
there. And, you can trust me, there were no U-2 flights by those folks nor
were any supported by those folks and no medals given.



overflights were always CIA operations

https://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/vol4...hoto_Gap_2.htm


there were ongoing "turf battles" over the COMOR and idealist programs

Vince, the CIA shares the U-2 Overflight information along with the various
other Spook....er.... Intel Agencies and that includes the AF, Navy and Army
as well. But the pilots have always been primarily AF pilots with a little
Navy and Marines thrown in for giggles.

On May 4, 2:44 pm, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 4, 11:52 am, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:

The reason the switch from CIA to Air Forces is not discussed on a
document is that it was a violent and noisy fight between the CIA
that knew there were missile bases in Pinar del Rio and LeMay who
wanted his boys to get the glory. The Pentagon backed LeMay. Scoop
Jackson's memoirs, which I have quoted previously show that is the
President who makes the decision to use Air Force pilots for th slim
possibility they will be made priosners of war and not killed as
spies.
Vince

now I know you are deeply confused:
here is the source you supplied for your claim

President Kennedy authorized an increase of U-2 missions over the
island. This increase in aerial reconnaissance coverage was caveated
with the limit that all future U-2 flights were to be conducted with
USAF personnel and U-2's from the Strategic Air Command. (124) President
Kennedy ordered the change from CIA to USAF missions in case there were
any shootdowns or losses. His reasoning was that USAF pilots could be
protected and treated as Prisoners of War versus CIA pilots who would be
considered spies. (125)

here is the reference in the source

(125) Jackson, 116.

your cite has a bibliography

http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/77ColdWarS...01biblgphy.htm

the reference for the Kennedy claim is to

Jackson, Robert. High Cold War: Strategic Air Reconnaissance and the
Electronic Intelligence War. Somerset: Patrick Stephens Limited, 1998.

Not senator Jackson and his "memoirs" Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson died
in 1983

What is the source for Robert Jackson's claim ?

Vince



Dumb, thinking something obvious when it wasn't. Lots of books
published after the author dies. I can't find Jackson as anything
other than a book for sale. Two more documentation of Air Force, even
DIA supervision of the October 14th flight. Otherwise I quit.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/Aug2005/0805U2.asp
In late August, Sen. Kenneth B. Keat*ing (R-N.Y.)-whose sources were
probably Cuban exiles in Florida-said there was evidence of Soviet
"rocket installations" in Cuba and urged Kennedy to act. Others,
notably Sen. Homer E. Capehart (R-Ind.), joined in the call for
action.

Strangely, U-2 flights ceased for more than a month, from Sept. 5 to
Oct. 14. One reason was bad weather, but another was anxiety on part
of the President's advisors, who worried about the consequences of a
U-2 shootdown.

To the dismay of the CIA, the Air Force took over the U-2 missions
when they resumed. The first flight was by Maj. Richard S. Heyser on
Oct. 14.

http://www2.mmae.ucf.edu/~rrm/mccoyhistg.htm
The first overflight of Cuba by a U-2 occurred on 14 Oct 1962, when
Maj. Steve Heyser left from Edwards AFB, CA and landed at McCoy AFB,
FL. It would also, be the first (Defense Intel Agency) DIA-controlled
U-2 mission. In six minutes over the target area, Major Heyser took
928 photos.

·

Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 4, 2:44 pm, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On May 4, 11:52 am, Vince wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
The reason the switch from CIA to Air Forces is not discussed on
a document is that it was a violent and noisy fight between the
CIA that knew there were missile bases in Pinar del Rio and LeMay
who wanted his boys to get the glory. The Pentagon backed LeMay.
Scoop Jackson's memoirs, which I have quoted previously show that
is the President who makes the decision to use Air Force pilots
for th slim possibility they will be made priosners of war and
not killed as spies.
Vince
now I know you are deeply confused:

Please accept my apology for the tone of this comment
even confusion on a point should not generate such a comment
this has been a most intelligent and enlightening discussion


here is the source you supplied for your claim

President Kennedy authorized an increase of U-2 missions over the
island. This increase in aerial reconnaissance coverage was
caveated with the limit that all future U-2 flights were to be
conducted with USAF personnel and U-2's from the Strategic Air
Command. (124) President Kennedy ordered the change from CIA to
USAF missions in case there were any shootdowns or losses. His
reasoning was that USAF pilots could be protected and treated as
Prisoners of War versus CIA pilots who would be considered spies.
(125)

here is the reference in the source

(125) Jackson, 116.

your cite has a bibliography

http://www.rb-29.net/HTML/77ColdWarS...01biblgphy.htm

the reference for the Kennedy claim is to

Jackson, Robert. High Cold War: Strategic Air Reconnaissance and
the Electronic Intelligence War. Somerset: Patrick Stephens
Limited, 1998.

Not senator Jackson and his "memoirs" Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson
died in 1983

What is the source for Robert Jackson's claim ?

Vince



Dumb, thinking something obvious when it wasn't. Lots of books
published after the author dies.

I can't find Jackson as anything
other than a book for sale. Two more documentation of Air Force, even
DIA supervision of the October 14th flight. Otherwise I quit.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/Aug2005/0805U2.asp In late August, Sen.
Kenneth B. Keat*ing (R-N.Y.)-whose sources were probably Cuban exiles
in Florida-said there was evidence of Soviet "rocket installations"
in Cuba and urged Kennedy to act. Others, notably Sen. Homer E.
Capehart (R-Ind.), joined in the call for action.

Strangely, U-2 flights ceased for more than a month, from Sept. 5 to
Oct. 14. One reason was bad weather, but another was anxiety on part
of the President's advisors, who worried about the consequences of a
U-2 shootdown.

To the dismay of the CIA, the Air Force took over the U-2 missions
when they resumed. The first flight was by Maj. Richard S. Heyser on
Oct. 14.

http://www2.mmae.ucf.edu/~rrm/mccoyhistg.htm The first overflight of
Cuba by a U-2 occurred on 14 Oct 1962,

this is clearly an error


when Maj. Steve Heyser left
from Edwards AFB, CA and landed at McCoy AFB, FL. It would also, be
the first (Defense Intel Agency) DIA-controlled U-2 mission. In six
minutes over the target area, Major Heyser took 928 photos.

What I find fascinating is the total absence in the literature of any
primary documentation for the AF claim.

Very worthwhile discussion


Vince