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Berlin Airlift, IFR
"John Godwin" wrote in message . 3.50... In those days, it was GCA It still is. |
#2
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Berlin Airlift, IFR
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 04:19:44 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote: "John Godwin" wrote in message .3.50... In those days, it was GCA It still is. GCA = Ground Controlled Approach. PAR = Precision Approach Radar (A GCA with both glide path and centerline guidance. ASR = Air Surveillance Radar (A GCA with centerline guidance only, using recommended minimum altitudes at various ranges from touchdown) Both ASR and PAR are GCA. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org www.thundertales.blogspot.com |
#3
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Berlin Airlift, IFR
Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 04:19:44 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote: "John Godwin" wrote in message 8.3.50... In those days, it was GCA It still is. GCA = Ground Controlled Approach. PAR = Precision Approach Radar (A GCA with both glide path and centerline guidance. ASR = Air Surveillance Radar (A GCA with centerline guidance only, using recommended minimum altitudes at various ranges from touchdown) Both ASR and PAR are GCA. That is today's definition. During the Berlin Airlift GCA meant azimuth, range, and elevation radars. |
#4
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Berlin Airlift, IFR
"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message ... GCA = Ground Controlled Approach. PAR = Precision Approach Radar (A GCA with both glide path and centerline guidance. ASR = Air Surveillance Radar (A GCA with centerline guidance only, using recommended minimum altitudes at various ranges from touchdown) Both ASR and PAR are GCA. A surveillance approach does not necessarily include recommended minimum altitudes. |
#5
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Berlin Airlift, IFR
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:43:54 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote: "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message .. . GCA = Ground Controlled Approach. PAR = Precision Approach Radar (A GCA with both glide path and centerline guidance. ASR = Air Surveillance Radar (A GCA with centerline guidance only, using recommended minimum altitudes at various ranges from touchdown) Both ASR and PAR are GCA. A surveillance approach does not necessarily include recommended minimum altitudes. Terminology and precision in language again. An ASR has minimum altitudes and a "begin descent" point after which you can descend to minimums as fast or as slowly as you choose while being guaranteed terrain clearance. My insertion of the modifier "recommended" was bad. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org www.thundertales.blogspot.com |
#6
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Berlin Airlift, IFR
"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
... On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:43:54 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote: "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message . .. GCA = Ground Controlled Approach. PAR = Precision Approach Radar (A GCA with both glide path and centerline guidance. ASR = Air Surveillance Radar (A GCA with centerline guidance only, using recommended minimum altitudes at various ranges from touchdown) Both ASR and PAR are GCA. A surveillance approach does not necessarily include recommended minimum altitudes. Terminology and precision in language again. An ASR has minimum altitudes and a "begin descent" point after which you can descend to minimums as fast or as slowly as you choose while being guaranteed terrain clearance. My insertion of the modifier "recommended" was bad. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org www.thundertales.blogspot.com Don't feel too bad Ed, Stevie's just splitting hairs again. From an FAA controller's standpoint recommended altitudes on ASR approaches are only provided on pilot request (see FAAO 7110.65 5-11-1). However IIRC, either AFR 60-5 or AFCSR 60-5 required USAF final controllers to provide them all the time even without a specific request so a USAF stick actuator would seldom (if ever) have a need to split that particular hair. |
#7
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Berlin Airlift, IFR
Recommended altitudes were routinely issued until an accident at Cleveland.
Then it was on request only. Al "KP" nospam@please wrote in message . .. "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message ... On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:43:54 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote: "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message ... GCA = Ground Controlled Approach. PAR = Precision Approach Radar (A GCA with both glide path and centerline guidance. ASR = Air Surveillance Radar (A GCA with centerline guidance only, using recommended minimum altitudes at various ranges from touchdown) Both ASR and PAR are GCA. A surveillance approach does not necessarily include recommended minimum altitudes. Terminology and precision in language again. An ASR has minimum altitudes and a "begin descent" point after which you can descend to minimums as fast or as slowly as you choose while being guaranteed terrain clearance. My insertion of the modifier "recommended" was bad. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org www.thundertales.blogspot.com Don't feel too bad Ed, Stevie's just splitting hairs again. From an FAA controller's standpoint recommended altitudes on ASR approaches are only provided on pilot request (see FAAO 7110.65 5-11-1). However IIRC, either AFR 60-5 or AFCSR 60-5 required USAF final controllers to provide them all the time even without a specific request so a USAF stick actuator would seldom (if ever) have a need to split that particular hair. |
#8
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Berlin Airlift, IFR
On Feb 12, 5:57 pm, Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:43:54 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote: "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message .. . GCA = Ground Controlled Approach. PAR = Precision Approach Radar (A GCA with both glide path and centerline guidance. ASR = Air Surveillance Radar (A GCA with centerline guidance only, using recommended minimum altitudes at various ranges from touchdown) Both ASR and PAR are GCA. A surveillance approach does not necessarily include recommended minimum altitudes. Terminology and precision in language again. An ASR has minimum altitudes and a "begin descent" point after which you can descend to minimums as fast or as slowly as you choose while being guaranteed terrain clearance. My insertion of the modifier "recommended" was bad. Our controller terminology was "X miles from runway" and "descend to your minimum descent altitude". The controller provided course trending information and the pilot was expected to maintain separation from terrain. Recommended altitudes could be provided on final approach if the pilot requested. The armed services may/may not have slightly different methods on altitude information. One other difference between a PAR approach and an ASR approach is that in the PAR approach the distances as given are from touchdown, and in the ASR approach distances are from the runway. John Hairell |
#9
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Berlin Airlift, IFR
" wrote in message
ups.com... On Feb 12, 5:57 pm, Ed Rasimus wrote: On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:43:54 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote: "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message .. . GCA = Ground Controlled Approach. PAR = Precision Approach Radar (A GCA with both glide path and centerline guidance. ASR = Air Surveillance Radar (A GCA with centerline guidance only, using recommended minimum altitudes at various ranges from touchdown) Both ASR and PAR are GCA. A surveillance approach does not necessarily include recommended minimum altitudes. Terminology and precision in language again. An ASR has minimum altitudes and a "begin descent" point after which you can descend to minimums as fast or as slowly as you choose while being guaranteed terrain clearance. My insertion of the modifier "recommended" was bad. Our controller terminology was "X miles from runway" and "descend to your minimum descent altitude". The controller provided course trending information and the pilot was expected to maintain separation from terrain. Recommended altitudes could be provided on final approach if the pilot requested. The armed services may/may not have slightly different methods on altitude information. Well, "the pilot was expected to maintain separation from terrain" only in the sense that like any other non-precision approach no glidepath info was provided. If there was a step-down fix on final the aircraft was descended to that altitude and only instructed to descend to the MDA after passing the fix. One other difference between a PAR approach and an ASR approach is that in the PAR approach the distances as given are from touchdown, and in the ASR approach distances are from the runway. Unless it's a "Surveillance approach using PAR azimuth, mileages will be from touchdown..." The AN/TPN-8 (-18 with IFF) was an, ummm, interesting piece of gear. It was pretty much a "one PAR at a time" set-up so the Arrival guy really had to space them out in the pattern or get the turn to final right on the money to get the second aircraft within coverage. Yeah, "interesting" that's the word I was looking for ;-) |
#10
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Berlin Airlift, IFR
KP wrote: Well, "the pilot was expected to maintain separation from terrain" only in the sense that like any other non-precision approach no glidepath info was provided. If there was a step-down fix on final the aircraft was descended to that altitude and only instructed to descend to the MDA after passing the fix. Exactly. One other difference between a PAR approach and an ASR approach is that in the PAR approach the distances as given are from touchdown, and in the ASR approach distances are from the runway. Unless it's a "Surveillance approach using PAR azimuth, mileages will be from touchdown..." Let's not confuse the aviators here. ;-) The AN/TPN-8 (-18 with IFF) was an, ummm, interesting piece of gear. It was pretty much a "one PAR at a time" set-up so the Arrival guy really had to space them out in the pattern or get the turn to final right on the money to get the second aircraft within coverage. Yeah, "interesting" that's the word I was looking for ;-) Been there, done that. Also seen on the TPN-18 where multiple PAR approaches could be run simultaneously on two displays, with the second final controller also acting as an arrival controller, switching the radar from ASR mode to PAR mode long enough to sequence traffic onto final and then switching back to PAR mode, handling PAR on one freq and arrival on another freq, while the other controller handles the other PAR on yet a third freq. Highly illegal but it's been done, with one aircraft landing, one descending, and one approaching to descend. Of course when the radar is switched from PAR to ASR, the other controller also loses their PAR display, making for some imaginative trending information to pilots. The other "interesting" thing about the TPN-18/TPX-44 setup was having the controllers read raw IFF blocks to decode. John Hairell ) |
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