when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote

Basic rules for Class C is paragraph 3-2-4 of the AIM:
1. When controller responds WITH your tail number that
is clearance to enter the class C airspace..

Dennis, the word "clearance" has specific meaning in aviation and
NO clearance is required, nor given, for VFR a/c to enter Class C
airspace.

Quoting from the AIM:

"1. If the controller responds to a radio call with,
"(aircraft callsign) standby," radio communications
have been established and the pilot can enter the
Class C airspace."


Bob Moore

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:28:56 GMT, Nathan Young
wrote:

On 13 Feb 2004 04:13:24 -0800, (Arden Prinz)
wrote:

Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace.

Charlie airspace requires established two way radio comm before entry.
You had this. However, the controller also told you to stay clear of
Charlie airspace. Therefore you needed to get cleared into Charlie
airspace before making the turn and did not - so I believe this was an
airspace incursion.

Irrespective of regulations - it never hurts to ask the controller for
clarification. I would say especially so with an Air Force base - you
never know what kind of wierd operations they may have going inside
their airspace.

Update: I didn't thoroughly read your original post. I didn't realize
your original call to approach was on the ground (and that probably
several minutes passed before contacting that controller again in the
air). That certainly obfuscates things.

I think that once two-way comm and radar contact was established with
you in the air, since the controller did not issue the 'Stay clear of
C' command - you did no wrong.

I still stand by my original comment that it wouldn't have hurt to
clarify intentions with the controller.

-Nathan

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...

Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he
later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's
instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the
"remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that
since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with
me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?


It ends upon receipt of ATC instructions that permit entry.

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message

.....when a class C controller
calls your tail number, it is per the rules THE permission to enter unless
he specifically instructs you to remain clear...

I stand corrected. I didn't (and still don't) recall that detail, but then
again, I never flew anything but IFR after about 1982. Doesn't sound like
it makes much sense, to me, but if that's what's written.....

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...

The basic thrust of your analysis is correct for most controlled airspace,
John; but the clinker in the ashes here is that when a class C controller
calls your tail number, it is per the rules THE permission to enter unless
he specifically instructs you to remain clear...
What the AIM does not make it clear is that after being told to stand
clear,
any subsequent tail number call, and especially with a phrase like, 'radar
contact established', barometer setting, etc., is clearance to enter per
the
rule unless he repeats the instruction to remain clear, or assigns you a
heading, etc..


The reason the AIM doesn't say that is because that's not the way it is.
Once told to remain clear you must remain clear until receipt of an
instruction that permits entry.

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...

Basic rules for Class C is paragraph 3-2-4 of the AIM:
1. When controller responds WITH your tail number that is
clearance to enter the class C airspace..
2. Exception to this rule is if the controller says, "Remain outside the
class Charlie airspace and standby." he is expected/required to use that
exact phrase

Now, the rule not printed that I can see is the exact phrase for
cancelling the remain clear instruction... So, per the Class C rules when
the controller called you back the second time by 'tail number', and said,
"radar contact established", etc., that was again establishing radio
contact
(per rule #1) and absent instructions to the contrary you are now cleared
to enter the class C, and if he doesn't like your new heading, he will say
so...


Wrong. Once told to memain clear you must remain clear until the controller
issues an instruction that permits entry.



Therefore, you were cleared and did not bust any rules...
I would have preferred that he said, cleared to enter my airspace, or the
class c, etc., somewhere in his patter - obviously he understands rule #1
and expects you to also understand it...


Once told to remain clear, entering without an explicit instruction that
permitted entry, such as "proceed on course" or "fly heading xxx", would be
a violation of FAR 91.123(b).

"Brad Z" wrote in message
news:B%4Xb.306189$na.460859@attbi_s04...

How did you contact approach prior to departure, RCO, GCO, telephone? If
so, he didn't know when you'd appear and didn't give you blanket
authorization to enter. Because entry doesn't require an ATC clearance,
you
won't hear the words "cleared into..." or the like. For clarification,
you
could check-in on the frequency with something like "N12345 off podunk
regional, 700 climbing for 3000, requesting overflight of Gunfire AFB, VFR
to Distantville Airport. If that's approved, you're golden. In your
scenario, after radar contact and 2-way comms in the air were established
without any further instructions to remain clear, you got the green light.


Wrong. He had been instructed to remain clear of the Class C airspace. He
doesn't have the green light until that instruction is superseded.

In article , Robert
Moore wrote:

EDR wrote

Class C: you have to establish two way radio contact and have
permission.

"Permission" is not acceptable air traffic control terminology.
If I am not told to "remain clear", I CAN fly in Class C and D.

I understand that. I went round and round with FAA HQ on this issue in
the 1980's. Permission is the word they used. From there the arguement
turned to what constituted permission.

Steven,

Once told to memain clear you must remain clear until the controller
issues an instruction that permits entry.

I sort of thought that when the controller called me by tail number
and said radar contact (and didn't say remain clear), that would
constitute a communication that permits entry. But you wrote:

... entering without an explicit instruction that
permitted entry, such as "proceed on course" or "fly heading xxx", would be
a violation ...

What determines which communications permit entry? Can you point me
to a reference in the FAR or AIM? Do say "proceed on course", but how
is that an explicit instruction to enter the class C airspace? I
would think "cleared to enter class C airspace" would be an explicit
instruction, but I certainly never hear that because I didn't think
that was necessary for class C, only class B. I don't understand why
you think "proceed on course" is an explicit instruction that permits
entry. (It certainly wouldn't be explicit if we were talking about
class B.) Again, a reference to something that would help be know
exactly which communications constituted explicit instruction to enter
vs. not would help me for the future.

John Gaquin wrote:

When you're talking about airspace entry, etc., pilot/controller interaction
is *never* "understood", or "presumed". Clear and direct statements are
used.
....
When you hear the phrase '....cleared to enter...', or '....cleared
into...', or some such.
I keep my airplane at a class C airport and don't think I ever hear
that type of language. When the controller calls my tail number and
doesn't tell me to remain clear then it means that I can enter.

John Harlow wrote:
Lol - in my experience, either the airspace is too busy - or you sound
like you could be a nuisance.
I think it might be standard practice for this AFB. I don't think the
airspace was busy. I guess they don't want people flying in until
they can see them on their screens. I hope I didn't sound like a
nuisance.

John Harlow wrote:
When you explicitly get permission to enter.
I though when they called my tail number and didn't tell me to remain
clear that was permission. Where is what I need to hear defined in
the FAR or AIM?

Maule Driver wrote:
Did the controller contact the pilot after departure before the pilot
called himself?
The controller called me (my speculation is that he called me upon
seeing me on his radar).

Nathan Young wrote:
Irrespective of regulations - it never hurts to ask the controller for
clarification.

I agree with you, but at the time it didn't occur to me that I needed
any clarification. I heard my tail number and did not hear another
remain clear and thought that meant I could enter. The ONLY reason
that I questioned this was that my pilot friend who was on board
questioned it first. And he said that he honestly didn't know, but
believed that I should have heard something else before entering.
Yes, I ask when I am confused about something ... but only if I
realize that I am confused. :-)
Anyway I prefer to get straightened out on these things on the ground
when possible so that I don't have to continually quiz the controllers
about things that I'm expected to know while in the air.

Steven P. McNicoll:
It ends upon receipt of ATC instructions that permit entry.

Which are defined where?

Thank-you!

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...

Steven,

Once told to memain clear you must remain clear until the controller
issues an instruction that permits entry.

I sort of thought that when the controller called me by tail number
and said radar contact (and didn't say remain clear), that would
constitute a communication that permits entry.


It does, unless the controller instructs you to remain clear of the Class C
airspace, as was the case here.



But you wrote:

... entering without an explicit instruction that
permitted entry, such as "proceed on course" or "fly heading xxx", would
be
a violation ...

What determines which communications permit entry? Can you point me
to a reference in the FAR or AIM? Do say "proceed on course", but
how is that an explicit instruction to enter the class C airspace? I
would think "cleared to enter class C airspace" would be an explicit
instruction, but I certainly never hear that because I didn't think
that was necessary for class C, only class B. I don't understand why
you think "proceed on course" is an explicit instruction that permits
entry. (It certainly wouldn't be explicit if we were talking about
class B.) Again, a reference to something that would help be know
exactly which communications constituted explicit instruction to enter
vs. not would help me for the future.


The last instruction issued by ATC in this case was "remain clear of the
Class C airspace. That instruction remains in effect until overridden by
another instruction. How can it be any other way? If you were IFR and
assigned eight thousand, at what point can you descend to six thousand?