when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

Ahh jeez, Steven... Firstly, because the question was not one for which
there is a pat answer in the AIM, I researched my answer before giving
it... A habit more people on here could benefit from... And, even though I
couched my answer in gentle terms, it is the correct regulatory answer, not
a guess...

As I commented, I don't see specific phrase in the AIM for the controller to
use for clearing an aircraft into the Class C after being told to stand
clear - and it might be a good idea...

But I could still be wrong, so I just polled both the Supervisor of a Class
C airspace, and I polled the supervisor of the Michigan FSDO... Both agree
that the AIM is correct... A pilot is cleared into the class C when the
controller establishes radio contact using the tail number; and does not
instruct him to remain clear... Nothing more is required...

So, on the first call the pilot was told, "Aircraft calling remain clear of
Charlie?, or "November 1234 remain clear of Class Charlie.", or words to
that effect... Fine, we all agree he is to remain clear...
Now the controller calls a bit later and says something to the effect,
"November 1234, radar contact 8 miles east of xyz, altimeter 30 point 00",
or some variation and shuts up - because he has established radio contact
which is 'the clearance to enter'...

So, I asked both, wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now 'cleared to
enter the C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that there is no
confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is establishing radio
contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out in the AIM..
denny

"Steven P. McNicoll" Wrong. Once told to memain clear you must remain
clear until the controller
issues an instruction that permits entry.

Even though I think there is some grey area here, I agree with the overly
curt but usually accurate Steven.

The last instruction issued was "remain clear' and that was issued, by tail
number, by approach to the aircraft (they would not have issued a
transponder without a tail number).

The grey area is that the 'remain clear' was issued *before departure*.
Once in the air, it seems reasonable to assume that an acknowleged call with
tail number is clearance in. But it seems ill advised to proceed on such an
assumption.

Here's the problem faced by the controller - a pilot asks for FF or whatever
before takeoff. The controller has absolutely no way to fix the time the
pilot will depart. So in order to avoid a misunderstanding about being
cleared into Class C while on the ground, he issues a 'remain clear' by
default. Once the pilot is in the air, the normal provisions would then
apply. An acknowledged call would be clearance into the space unless a
'remain clear' is issued. I'd bet that's what the controller intended ....
but I wouldn't act on it. It's a nasty grey area and requires some explicit
clarification before proceeding.

In IFR land, the problem is avoided by issuing a void time clearance in
order to fix the time that the pilot takes off and airspace has to be
cleared.

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...
Ahh jeez, Steven... Firstly, because the question was not one for which
there is a pat answer in the AIM, I researched my answer before giving
it... A habit more people on here could benefit from... And, even though
I
couched my answer in gentle terms, it is the correct regulatory answer,
not
a guess...

As I commented, I don't see specific phrase in the AIM for the controller
to
use for clearing an aircraft into the Class C after being told to stand
clear - and it might be a good idea...

But I could still be wrong, so I just polled both the Supervisor of a
Class
C airspace, and I polled the supervisor of the Michigan FSDO... Both
agree
that the AIM is correct... A pilot is cleared into the class C when the
controller establishes radio contact using the tail number; and does not
instruct him to remain clear... Nothing more is required...

So, on the first call the pilot was told, "Aircraft calling remain clear
of
Charlie?, or "November 1234 remain clear of Class Charlie.", or words to
that effect... Fine, we all agree he is to remain clear...
Now the controller calls a bit later and says something to the effect,
"November 1234, radar contact 8 miles east of xyz, altimeter 30 point 00",
or some variation and shuts up - because he has established radio
contact
which is 'the clearance to enter'...

So, I asked both, wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now 'cleared to
enter the C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that there is no
confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is establishing
radio
contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out in the AIM..
denny

"Steven P. McNicoll" Wrong. Once told to memain clear you must remain
clear until the controller
issues an instruction that permits entry.

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
m...
Even though I think there is some grey area here, I agree with the overly
curt but usually accurate Steven.

One of the things expressed by the folks I talked to; they get frustrated by
pilots who enter the system and do not understand the most basic of rules,
even when the controller uses the exact phrasing that the AIM calls out...
As the one said, "I'm here for safety of flight, not to be your CFI..."
denny

You do not need a "Clearance" to enter Class C, however you do need two way
communications and be recognized as stated below in the Airmen Information
Manual.



Richard



3. Arrival or Through Flight Entry Requirements. Two-way radio communication
must be established with the ATC facility providing ATC services prior to
entry and thereafter maintain those communications while in Class C
airspace. Pilots of arriving aircraft should contact the Class C airspace
ATC facility on the publicized frequency and give their position, altitude,
radar beacon code, destination, and request Class C service. Radio contact
should be initiated far enough from the Class C airspace boundary to
preclude entering Class C airspace before two-way radio communications are
established.

NOTE-
1. If the controller responds to a radio call with, "(aircraft callsign)
standby," radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter
the Class C airspace.

2. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of
Class C services, the controller will inform the pilot to remain outside the
Class C airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.

3. It is important to understand that if the controller responds to the
initial radio call without using the aircraft identification, radio
communications have not been established and the pilot may not enter the
Class C airspace.

EXAMPLE-
1. [Aircraft callsign] "remain outside the Class Charlie airspace and
standby."

2. "Aircraft calling Dulles approach control, standby."

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...
Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he
later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's
instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the
"remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that
since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with
me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?

Thank-you.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
The last instruction issued by ATC in this case was "remain clear of the
Class C airspace. That instruction remains in effect until overridden by
another instruction. How can it be any other way?

Well, suppose the pilot returns tomorrow and establishes two-way
communication with the Class C controller. Yesterday's remain-clear
instruction still has not been explicitly rescinded. So is it still in
effect, or can the pilot now enter the Class C?

--Gary

I've had this happen to me a few times. After a "remain clear"
instruction, the controller would say something like "cancel previous
restriction, proceed on course". The "remain clear" instruction does
not expire until the controller explicitly cancels it.



(Arden Prinz) wrote in message . com...
Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he
later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's
instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the
"remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that
since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with
me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?

Thank-you.

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
m...
Even though I think there is some grey area here, I agree with the
overly
curt but usually accurate Steven.

One of the things expressed by the folks I talked to; they get frustrated
by
pilots who enter the system and do not understand the most basic of rules,
even when the controller uses the exact phrasing that the AIM calls out...
As the one said, "I'm here for safety of flight, not to be your CFI..."
denny

I'm sure it is frustrating. But the answer to the original question
remained murky to me. So I too went back to the FARs and the AIM. My
understanding now is that you are correct Dennis. The pilot was legal but
the sequence of communciations from ATC was confusing. And getting to that
conclusion was not straightforward.

ATC had issued a "remain clear" before departure. And the implication in
the original post was the the tail number was used since a squawk code was
issued before the departure.

Steven stated, "Once told to memain clear you must remain clear until the
controller issues an instruction that permits entry." As a practical
matter, I would agree. But Dennis goes on to state, "...he has established
radio contact which is 'the clearance to enter'...So, I asked both(FAA
types) , wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now 'cleared to enter the
C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that there is no
confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is establishing radio
contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out in the AIM." I say
b*** s*** to the FAA types.

I would counter that the AIM is not regulatory and that an ATC communication
using your tail number is not always a clearance to enter. An example
would be where per the AIM, ATC says "1234Alpha, remain outside Class
Charlie and standby". Then follows with a "1234 Alpha traffic 11 oclock
3,000feet". I would maintain that I've been told to remain clear and that
the subsequent tail number identified communication *does not* clear me to
enter. I would still be waiting for an instruction that permits entry.

So, if a pilot has been told to remain clear and identified by tail number,
then he should remain clear until given an instruction that permits entry.
A vector would do the trick. Legally, a 'radar contact and altimeter' would
probably keep you out of jail but would be a bit stupid. Any frustration by
ATC is misguided. A simple "...and proceed direct xxx" would do. I've been
in this situation and in that particular case each traffic advisory was
accompanied by the repeated instruction to 'remain clear'. Now that was
clear!

But in this case, the key is that the "remain clear" was issued before
departure and therefore doesn't play a part in subsequent communications
after departure. There's no requirement to establish communications from an
underlying airport before departure so any radio contact established before
departure shouldn't be considered qualification to enter the Class C. By
the same token, the admonishment to remain clear of Class C issued before
departure is meaningless once one has departed. If one establishes radio
contact after departure, then one is cleared to enter just as the original
poster did.

It's clear to me now but it certainly isn't clear "according to the most
basic of rules".Nor is it clear to the well trained pilot in actual flight.
Otherwise their wouldn't be so much confusion on the part of so many
knowledgeable people on this newsgroup.

Thanks for an excuse to study the FAR/AIM.

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
"Steven P. McNicoll"
The last instruction issued by ATC in this case was "remain clear of the
Class C airspace. That instruction remains in effect until overridden
by
another instruction. How can it be any other way?

Well, suppose the pilot returns tomorrow and establishes two-way
communication with the Class C controller. Yesterday's remain-clear
instruction still has not been explicitly rescinded. So is it still in
effect, or can the pilot now enter the Class C?

I think you are getting to the heart of the matter. The key is that the
"remain clear' was issued before departure. It is a meaningless
admonishment by ATC. They can't clear you to enter before departure anymore
than they need to tell you to remain clear. What it is really meant to
convey is that "just because you are about ready to depart and we've made
radio contact with N-numbers, don't think it means that radio contact has
been established for the purpose of entering my Class C - let's talk after
you depart"

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
om...
I've had this happen to me a few times. After a "remain clear"
instruction, the controller would say something like "cancel previous
restriction, proceed on course". The "remain clear" instruction does
not expire until the controller explicitly cancels it.

Except in this case, the "remain clear" was issued before a VFR departure
and is meaningless. Conversely, if the ATC and the pilot established radio
contact with tail number ID included *just before departure*, it does not
mean that the pilot is cleared to depart and enter the Class C. That radio
contact and it's implied clearance is equally meaningless. The
communications aren't meaningful until the pilot is in flight.


..

"Maule Driver" . The pilot was legal but
the sequence of communciations from ATC was confusing. And getting to
that
conclusion was not straightforward.

Absolute agreement on that... And, I actually learned something, so it was
win-win... I do owe a controller a ride however, so knowledge is never
free...

denny