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#11
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CFI Spin Requirements
On Feb 20, 4:28 pm, "Allen" wrote:
Bill O'Reily - The "No Spin Zone" -- Oh man, do I feel dumb. |
#12
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CFI Spin Requirements
On Feb 20, 1:32*pm, kontiki wrote:
Allen wrote: wrote in message ... On Feb 20, 3:09 pm, "Bob F." wrote: He took the Bill O'Reilly course. BobF. CFII/ATP I don't pretend to know what that means... Dan Bill O'Reily - The "No Spin Zone" mxsmanic even spun his sim a few times. I tried to spin a Mooney in MSFS X. I could never get it to stay in a spin. I assume the logic of the game was faulty but I certainly don't have the guts to try to spin my Mooney. -Robert |
#13
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CFI Spin Requirements
On Feb 20, 10:26*am, " wrote:
In preparing for the CFI I was surprised to learn that many CFIs have never done a spin. I wondered how this could be, until I carefully reviewed the Section 61.105-107 There's no *requirement* to actually spin -- only that the applicant exhibits knowledge of "(11) Stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery techniques for the airplane and glider category ratings;" and has "(1) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the applicant is competent and possesses instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures after providing the applicant with flight training in those training areas in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins; and (2) Demonstrate instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures. However, upon presentation of the endorsement specified in paragraph (i)(1) of this section an examiner may accept that endorsement as satisfactory evidence of instructional proficiency in stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery procedures for the practical test, provided that the practical test is not a retest as a result of the applicant failing the previous test for deficiencies in the knowledge or skill of stall awareness, spin entry, spins, or spin recovery instructional procedures. If the retest is a result of deficiencies in the ability of an applicant to demonstrate knowledge or skill of stall awareness, spin entry, spins, or spin recovery instructional procedures, the examiner must test the person on stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery instructional procedures in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins;" So technically .. if one found a complicit CFI, one could be a Certified Flight Instructor with absolutely no real experience actually entering or recovering from a spin. This squares with some (scary) things I've heard regarding "90 day wonder" CFI/IIs who have never been in IMC, never fully stalled, and never used an E-6B (electronic or manual). Dan Dan I delayed responding as I have addressed this in the past. Like several of the old timers here who learned to fly in the 40's/50's, spins were a simple fact and were done without a lot of thought. As I recall, in the 60's, there was a big push for new inspectors in the FAA, new blood, "Equal Opportunity" etc ad naseum, and they hired a lot of people who had no clue about the real world of aviation. I know for a personal fact, several people who were hired because they were either black or female and barely had their certificates. Now they have risen to the higest ranks and are making policy and stil have no clue about what flying is all about. That was the reason for the tailwheel hysteria and endorsements, the spin training (or lack thereof) and the general dumbing down of the requirements. Things have not changed and there are damned few in the FSDO anymore who are worth a damn or know what they6 are talking about. One of my favorites was the FSDO inspector who asked me where the carb heat lever was on a turbine helicopter.... As a senior instructor, I fly with new CFI's on standards checks and am appalled at their general lack of basic proficiency or knowledge. Spins? Stalls? Terrible if not outright felonious. I have done nearly 6000 hours of dual now. Ol S&B |
#14
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CFI Spin Requirements
On 2008-02-20 08:26:19 -0800, " said:
So technically .. if one found a complicit CFI, one could be a Certified Flight Instructor with absolutely no real experience actually entering or recovering from a spin. I think that interpreting the requirements as not requiring spin training would be a poor defense against a charge of falsifying a logbook entry. This squares with some (scary) things I've heard regarding "90 day wonder" CFI/IIs who have never been in IMC, never fully stalled, and never used an E-6B (electronic or manual). Dan I have never met such a "90 day wonder," but if you say they are out there... Never having been in IMC I can partly understand. After all, some places never get IMC. Perhaps you could name a school that is actually not doing spins, stalls, or teaching flight planning. -- Waddling Eagle World Famous Flight Instructor |
#15
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CFI Spin Requirements
On Feb 21, 3:52 pm, C J Campbell
wrote: I have never met such a "90 day wonder," but if you say they are out there... Never having been in IMC I can partly understand. After all, some places never get IMC. Perhaps you could name a school that is actually not doing spins, stalls, or teaching flight planning. -- Waddling Eagle World Famous Flight Instructor I'm not that stupid to "name names" on usenet. That said -- I know a CFII from a dedicated, go-full-time, CFI/Flight Training program that doesn't know what an E-6B is, has never been in IMC, and has never recovered from a spin. And I stand by my assertion that there's a hole in the regulatory language that you can drive a truck through -- there is no *requirement* that the CFI candidate actually --Spin an airplane-- only that he/ she demonstrate "instructional proficiency." While most reasonable people know what the intent of this paragraph of the CFRs is, the intentional ambiguity is there -- and there are people taking advantage of this fact. Dan |
#16
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CFI Spin Requirements
" wrote
And I stand by my assertion that there's a hole in the regulatory language that you can drive a truck through -- there is no *requirement* that the CFI candidate actually --Spin an airplane-- only that he/ she demonstrate "instructional proficiency." I thought that there was a requirement for CFI candidates to be able to (b) Be able to read, speak, write, and UNDERSTAND the English language. What is there not to understand about the following regulation? (1) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the APPLICANT IS COMPETENT "and" possesses instructional proficiency IN stall awareness, SPIN ENTRY, SPINS, and SPIN RECOVERY procedures after providing the applicant with FLIGHT TRAINING IN THOSE TRAINING AREAS in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins. How can one be deemed to be competent in a procedure without having demonstrated that procedure. Note that in the regulation, there are two requirements, first to be competent in the maneuvers and second, to possess instuctional proficiency in the maneuvers. Your "only that he/ she demonstrate "instructional proficiency." is not a true statement. Now.... when I was training for my Flight Instructor Certificate back in 1970 at a Part 141 Flight Training Center, I was flying for PanAm and was fairly recently out of the Navy and about 35 years old. My 20 year old instructor was obviously uncomfortable at the thought of doing spins with me in the school's C-150, so we worked up a deal, He would stand on the ground and just observe me doing a couple of spins. If I lived, I would get the endorsement. :-) True story. Bob Moore CFI ASEL/IA AGI/IGI ATP ASMEL B-727 B-707 L-188 Naval Aviator S-2 P-2 P-3 PanAm (retired) |
#17
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CFI Spin Requirements
On Feb 21, 7:13 pm, Robert Moore wrote:
" wrote And I stand by my assertion that there's a hole in the regulatory language that you can drive a truck through -- there is no *requirement* that the CFI candidate actually --Spin an airplane-- only that he/ she demonstrate "instructional proficiency." I thought that there was a requirement for CFI candidates to be able to (b) Be able to read, speak, write, and UNDERSTAND the English language. What is there not to understand about the following regulation? (1) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the APPLICANT IS COMPETENT "and" possesses instructional proficiency IN stall awareness, SPIN ENTRY, SPINS, and SPIN RECOVERY procedures after providing the applicant with FLIGHT TRAINING IN THOSE TRAINING AREAS in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins. How can one be deemed to be competent in a procedure without having demonstrated that procedure. Note that in the regulation, there are two requirements, first to be competent in the maneuvers and second, to possess instuctional proficiency in the maneuvers. Your "only that he/ she demonstrate "instructional proficiency." is not a true statement. Now.... when I was training for my Flight Instructor Certificate back in 1970 at a Part 141 Flight Training Center, I was flying for PanAm and was fairly recently out of the Navy and about 35 years old. My 20 year old instructor was obviously uncomfortable at the thought of doing spins with me in the school's C-150, so we worked up a deal, He would stand on the ground and just observe me doing a couple of spins. If I lived, I would get the endorsement. :-) True story. Bob Moore CFI ASEL/IA AGI/IGI ATP ASMEL B-727 B-707 L-188 Naval Aviator S-2 P-2 P-3 PanAm (retired) I agree with you -- a reasonable person understands what that paragraph means. BUT -- someone who wants to weasel out of it can and some have. I think the wording is ambiguous compared to other paragraphs that are intentionally specific -- x many hours, y many approaches. Dan |
#18
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CFI Spin Requirements
On Feb 21, 7:13 pm, Robert Moore wrote:
How can one be deemed to be competent in a procedure without having demonstrated that procedure. Note that in the regulation, there are two requirements, first to be competent in the maneuvers and second, to possess instuctional proficiency in the maneuvers. Your "only that he/ she demonstrate "instructional proficiency." is not a true statement. Bob Moore CFI ASEL/IA AGI/IGI ATP ASMEL B-727 B-707 L-188 Naval Aviator S-2 P-2 P-3 PanAm (retired) Bob, Let me rephrase the problem -- Why would the CFRs be so specific in some paragraphs and not as specific in this case? Dan |
#19
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CFI Spin Requirements
I've seen a "pencil annuals".. what makes you think some CFI would not do
the same thing. B "Robert Moore" wrote in message 46.128... " wrote And I stand by my assertion that there's a hole in the regulatory language that you can drive a truck through -- there is no *requirement* that the CFI candidate actually --Spin an airplane-- only that he/ she demonstrate "instructional proficiency." I thought that there was a requirement for CFI candidates to be able to (b) Be able to read, speak, write, and UNDERSTAND the English language. What is there not to understand about the following regulation? (1) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor indicating that the APPLICANT IS COMPETENT "and" possesses instructional proficiency IN stall awareness, SPIN ENTRY, SPINS, and SPIN RECOVERY procedures after providing the applicant with FLIGHT TRAINING IN THOSE TRAINING AREAS in an airplane or glider, as appropriate, that is certificated for spins. How can one be deemed to be competent in a procedure without having demonstrated that procedure. Note that in the regulation, there are two requirements, first to be competent in the maneuvers and second, to possess instuctional proficiency in the maneuvers. Your "only that he/ she demonstrate "instructional proficiency." is not a true statement. Now.... when I was training for my Flight Instructor Certificate back in 1970 at a Part 141 Flight Training Center, I was flying for PanAm and was fairly recently out of the Navy and about 35 years old. My 20 year old instructor was obviously uncomfortable at the thought of doing spins with me in the school's C-150, so we worked up a deal, He would stand on the ground and just observe me doing a couple of spins. If I lived, I would get the endorsement. :-) True story. Bob Moore CFI ASEL/IA AGI/IGI ATP ASMEL B-727 B-707 L-188 Naval Aviator S-2 P-2 P-3 PanAm (retired) |
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