Red Baron reports and other stuff Qs

Hello everybody

I’ve spent some free time with reading threads in this forum
related to Vietnam war.
It was very nice reading and while I’ve got few books about
Vietnam war (Michel’s Clashes one of the best) I’ve
learned a lot unknown facts – at least to me.

Some of the best posts here were based on datas from declassiefied
reports (same with Clashes) and as a European I don’t know much
about them and I would like to ask some details.

In this forum were mostly mentioned Red Baron I/ II/ III, Corona
Harvest and CHECO reports. All these and many others are also
mentioned in Clashes.

From all these I have seen few CHECO reports avalaible for free on the
web. Sadly only one, College Eye special report covered areas of my
interest but it is highly interesting reading.
So CHECO reports are focused only on one topic, right?
Were many (and which) focused on AA combat in Vietnam?

Never seen Corona Harvest reports, what sort of information is
included in?

The same for Red Baron reports, only now that here should be described
all air combats fought over SEA. What is included in
„typical“ description of each combat?

And most important Qs for all three sort of reports:

How long are they?
Where can I find them or where should I ask to order them?
What is the price of each sort or are they for free?

Regards
Ivan

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Ivan asked:


And most important Qs for all three sort of reports:

How long are they?
Where can I find them or where should I ask to order them?
What is the price of each sort or are they for free?

Ivan...a cut and paste job from Dalley's online catalog

1812.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~A Shau Valley Campaign
-December 1968-May 1969.Paperback: HQ PACAF, 1969. 63 pp., $8.00.
Photocopied reprint in a softcard cover. Report discusses the
tactical employment of fixed-wing air strikes in support of air mobile
US troops in the A Shau Valley. Written by Bert B. Aton.

1813.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~Air Response to the TET
Offensive: 30 January - 29 February 1968.Paperback: HQ PACAF, 1968.
93 pp., $10.00. Photocopied reprint in a softcard cover. Monograph
discusses offensive and defensive air support, close air support of
ground troops in the cities, air base defense, VNAF performance,
emergency airlift and civic responsibilites. Written by A.W. Thompson
and C. William Thorndale.

1814.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~Air War in Vietnam -
1968-1969.Paperback: HQ PACAF, 1970. 141 pp., $14.50. Photocopied
reprint in a softcard cover. Discusses role of airpowerr from January
of 1968 to December of 1969, including the TET Offensive and the
shifting of air effort to Southern Laos once the bombing halt of North
Vietnam began. Written by Kenneth Sams, John Schlight, Richard F.
Kott, M. J. Mendelsohn and Philip D. Caine.

1815.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~Battle for An Loc - 5 APRIL
-26 JUNE 1972.Paperback: HQ PACAF, 1973. 96 pp., $10.00.
Photocopied reprint in a softcard cover. Written by Paul T.
Ringenbach and Peter J. Melly.

1816.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~Buffalo Hunter: 1970-1972,
Volume 1.Paperback: HQ PACAF, 1973. 42 pp., $4.50. Photocopied
rerpint. Report examines Buffalo Hunter reconnaissance drone
operations. Written by Paul W. Elder.

1817.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~Evolution of the Rules of
Engagement for Southeast Asia: 1960-1965.Paperback: HQ PACAF, 1966.
Reprint, 86 pp., $10.00. A phtocopied reprint in a softcard cover.
Study summarizes reconnaissance operations, interdiction in southern
and northern Laos, and the training of the Vietnamese Air Force.
Prepared by L.E. Paterson.

1818.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~Impact of Geography on Air
Operations in Southeast Asia.Paperback: HQ PACAF, 1970. 66 pp.,
$10.00. Photocopied reprint in a softcard cover. Report discusses
the geographical characteristics of South Vietnam, North Vietnam, Laos
and Cambodia. Written by Louis Seig.

1819.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~Khe Sanh (Operation
Niagara) 22 January-31 March 1968.Paperback: HQ PACAF, 1968. 132
pp., $12.50. Photocopied reprint in a softcard cover. Report reviews
the 1968 Seventh Air Force effort to disrupt major enemy offensive in
northwestern I Corps and adjoining area of Laos. Written by Warren A.
Trest.

1820.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~Kontum: Battle for the
Central Highlands -30 March-10 June 1972.Paperback: HQ PACAF, 1972.
118 pp., $12.50. Photocopied reprint in a softcard cover. Report
discusses US and South Vietnamese efforts to prevent a defeat in the
Central Highlands during the North Vietnamese Army's 1972 offensive.
Written by Peter A. W. Liebchen.

1821.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~Lam Son 719: 30 January to
24 March 1971. The South Vietnamese Incursion Into Laos.Paperback:
HQ PACAF, 1971. 165 pp., $16.00. Photocopied reprint in a soft card
cover. This study addresses problems in air strike coordination.
Written by J.F. Loye, Jr., Leo J. Johnson, G.K. StClair and John W.
Dennison.

1822.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~Linebacker Operations -
September-December 1972.Paperback: HQ PACAF, 1978. 106 pp., $10.50.
Photocopied reprint in a softcard cover. Report discusses the
evolution of bombing tactics and technologies from September 1972
until the final cease-fire announcement on January 14th, 1973.
Written by Calvin R. Johnson.

1823.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~Linebacker: Overview of the
First 120 Days.Paperback: HQPACAF, 1973. Reprint, 79 pp., $10.00.
Photocopied reprint in a softcard cover, a fine copy. This report
documents LINEBACKER I, the bombing campaign launcher over North
Vietnam on May 9th, 1972. It compares it ot the ROLLING THUNDER
Campaign of 1965-1968.

1824.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~Operation Junction
City.Paperback: HQ PACAF, 1967. 47 pp., $7.50. A photocopied
reprint in a softcard cover. Monograph discusses the attempt of this
operation to eliminate a major enemy sanctuary near the Cambodian
border. Written by Lawrence J. Hickey.

1825.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~Rolling Thunder: 17
November 1967.Paperback: HQ PACAF, 1967. Reprint, 56 pp., $7.50.
Photocopied reprint in a softcard cover. Report discusses Rolling
Thunder objectives and results. Written by Robert Leo Vining.

1826.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~Rolling Thunder: January
1967 - November 1968.Paperback: HQ PACAF, 1969. 53 pp., $8.00. A
photocopied reprint in a softcard cover. Monograph discusses targets
selected and costs of airstrikes to North Vietnam. Written by James
B. Overton.

1827.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~Rolling Thunder: July 1965
- December 1966.Paperback: HQ PACAF, 1967. 150 pp., $15.00. A
photocopied reprint in a softcard cover. Monograph summarizes the
U.S. air campaign against North Vietnam during this period. Written
by Wesley R.C. Melyan and Lee Bonetti. in addition to 149 pages,
there are 20 pages of charts.

1828.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~Rolling Thunder: March-June
1965.Paperback: HQ PACAF, 1966. Reprint, 83 pp., $10.00.
Photocopied reprint in a softcard cover, a fine copy. Report prepared
by the Southeast Asia Team of Project CHECO. This report documents
the execution of ROLLING THUNDER in North Vietnam from its beginning
as FLAMING DART through to June 1965.

1829.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~The 1972 Invasion of
Military Region I: Fall of Quang Tri and Defense of Hue.Paperback: HQ
PACAF, 1973. 85 pp., $9.50. Photocopied reprint in a softcard cover.
Monograph traces the action of the North Vietnamese Army to control
Quang Tri and Thien Provinces, and response of Allied Forces to the
NVA 1972 Offensive in Military Region I. Written by David K. Mann.

1830.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~The Defense of
Saigon.Paperback: HQ PACAF, 1968. 88 pp., $10.00. A photocopied
reprint in a softcard cover. Monograph traces the 1968 North
Vietnamese Winter-Spring campaign in the Saigon area. Written by A.W.
Thompson. In addition to 88 pages, there are 24 pages of charts and
figures.

1831.) USAF PROJECT CHECO 7TH AIR FORCE: ~The F-111 In Southeast
Asia: September 1972-January 1973.Paperback: HQ PACAF, 1974. 77 pp.,
$8.50. Photocopied reprint in a soft card cover. This report
discusses re-introduction of the F-111 into Southeast Asia in 1972.
Background to the ineffectiveness of the F-111 when first deployed in
1968 is also provided in this study. Five pages remain classified.

1832.) USAF PUBLICAITONS: FORCE: ~Commando Hunt.Paperback: San
Francisco, CA, Headquarters Seventh Air Force, 1969. Reprint, 206
pp., $29.50. Photocopied reprint in spiral binding, a mint copy. A
report on the joint interdiction operatoins of the Commando Hunt
campaign. It describes the conduct of the campaign and its results in
terms of enemy logistic flows reduced, trucks and supplies destroyed,
resources tied down within Laos, and the effects of this had on enemy
efforts within South Vietnam.

1833.) USAF PUBLICATION: ~Summary of United States Air Force
Aircraft Losses in Southeast Asia.Paperback: Langley AFB, VA,
Headquarters Tactical Air Command, 1974. Reprint, 95 pp., $15.00.
Wraps photocopied reprint in combed bound binding, a mint copy. This
study is a presentation of the United States Air force aircraft losses
in the Southeast Asia conflict from January 1962 through January 1973.
Its emphasis is on the tactical air forces.

1834.) USAF PUBLICATIONS: ~Aces and Aerial Victories: The United
States Air Force in Southeast Asia: 1965-1973.Paperback: Washington,
D.C., Government Printing Office, 1976. 187 pp., $12.50. Wraps trade
ed., a v/g copy.

1835.) USAF PUBLICATIONS: ~Air Force Heroes In Vietnam.Paperback:
Maxwell AFB, AL, Airpower Research Institute, 1979. 86 pp., $10.00.
Wraps trade ed., ex-library, o/w a v/g plus copy. Written by Donald
K. Schneider, USAF SEA Monograph Series, Vol. 7, No. 9.

1836.) USAF PUBLICATIONS: ~Airpower and the 1972 Spring
Invasion.Paperback: Washington, D.C., Goverment Printing Office,
1976. 113 pp., $12.50. Wraps trade ed., a v/g copy. Edited by
Colonel Donaldson D. Frizzell & Colonel Ray L. Bowers. Thirteen Air
Force officers contributed to this monograph.

1837.) USAF PUBLICATIONS: ~Airpower and the Airlift Evacuation of
Kham Duc.Paperback: Washington, DC, Government Printing Office, 1979.
87 pp., $10.50. Wraps trade ed., a v/g copy. Written by Lieutenant
Colonel Alan L. Gropman.

1838.) USAF PUBLICATIONS: ~Last Flight From Saigon.Paperback:
Washington, D.C., Government Printing Office, 1978. 138 pp., $12.50.
Wraps trade ed., a v/g copy. Edited by A.J.C. Lavalle.

1839.) USAF PUBLICATIONS: ~The Tale of Two Bridges and The Battle
for the Skies Over North Vietnam.Paperback: Washington, D.C.,
Goverment Printing Office, 1984. 193 pp., $12.50. Wraps trade ed., a
v/g copy. Edited by Major A. J. C. LaVelle.

1840.) USAF PUBLICATIONS: ~The United States Air Force In Southeast
Asia: 1961-1973: An Illustrated Account. Hardcover: Washingotn, DC:
Government Prining Office, 1977. 381 pp., $25.00. A fine copy.
Edited by Carl Berrger, excellent photos with authoriative articles by
Ballard, Bowers, Doty, Futrell, Greenhaigh, Karstetter, Kritt,
Krudener, Patchin, Rowley, Van Staaveren and Termena.

1841.) USAF PUBLICATIONS: ~The United States Air Force In Southeast
Asia: Development and Employment of Fixed-Wing Gunships, 1962-1972.
Hardcover: Washington, D.C.: Office of Air Force History, 1982. 326
pp., $30.00. Paperback: Washington, DC, Office of Air Force History,
1982. 326 pp., $24.00. A fine copy. Wraps a trade size ed, a mint
copy. Written by Jack Ballard.

1842.) USAF PUBLICATIONS: ~The United States Air Force In Southeast
Asia: Tactical Airlift. Hardcover: Washington, D.C.: Office of Air
Force History, 1983. 899 pp., $35.00. A fine copy. Written by Ray
L. Bowers.

1843.) USAF PUBLICATIONS: ~The United States Air Force in Southeast
Asia: The Advisory Years to 1965. Hardcover: Washington, D.C.:
Government Printing Office, 1981. 398 pp., $17.50. A very fine copy.
Book was written by Robert F. Futrell with the assistance of Martin
Blumenson.

1844.) USAF PUBLICATIONS: ~The Vietnamese Air Force, 1951-1975, An
Analysis of Its Role In Combat and Fourteen Hours At Koh
Tang.Paperback: Washington, D.C., Government Printing Office, 1977.
161 pp., $12.50. Wraps trade ed., a v/g copy. The Vietnamese Air
Force was written byWilliam W. Momyer and Fourteen Hours at Koh Tabng
was written by Thomas D. Des Brisay.

1845.) USAF PUBLICATIONS: ~The War In South Vietnam: The Years of
the Offensive, 1965-1968. Hardcover: Washington, D.C.: Office of Air
Force History, 1988. 410 pp., $20.00. A fine copy in a fine d/j.
Written by John Schlight.

Juvat wrote:

--lead-in snipped--

The portions I've looked at list date, time of day, friendly formation
info, and nature of engagement or simply a sighting of a MiG.
Full-blown dogfights have diagrams (nothing too exotic).

A simple entry might read something like: 12 Jun 67, 1440L, 2 RF-101C
callsign Bubkus 11. Bupkus 11 flight of two RF-101Cs during egress at
20,000' sighted a flight of 4 MiG-21s at their low 7 o'clock heading
the opposite direction. There was no MiG warning broadcast.

Keep in mind that some of the report information may not be accurate.
An F-105 historian that I communicate with forwarded the Red Baron
report of the MiG engagement I describe in Chapter 14 of my book ("Of
MiGs and Moustaches") for my edification. It was flat wrong! Only one
member of the flight was interviewed, that was done eight months after
the engagement and after he had rotated out of SEA, and the
description of the events, while marginally accurate is totally wrong
on a number of key factors.

The core facts such as call-sign, target for the day, time, date, and
maybe weather can be captured after the fact, but the relationships,
actions and (in those days) lack of audio/video capture of the visuals
and radio calls makes it difficult to get the tactical situation.

As we old tuskers head off to the elephant graveyard, there will be
fewer and fewer recollections of what "really" happened and more and
more pointy-headed academics telling us what it was actually like.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

"George Shirley" wrote in message
...
snip

And revising it to suit their own politics as is usually in some
academic communities.

Such is the basis of political science in America.

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Ed Rasimus
blurted out:


Keep in mind that some of the report information may not be accurate.

Well that can also happen with supposedly contemporaneous unit
histories. If you happen to have a copy of the CNA list or Chris
Hobson's excellent compilation handy...

Quick example.

3 Nov 1966 RF-101C from 45th TRS hit N of the DMZ and pilot jumps out
over the GoT. Pilot listed in the official Oct-Dec 1966 unit history
is Capt Denis Haney and therefore his name is in the CNA list and
Hobson's.

Fast forward to 8 Feb 1967 when the 45th lost its next Voodoo. The
pilot was also hit near the DMZ and jumped out over the GoT. The
Jan-Mar 1967 unit history (and CNA, Hobson) lists Capt John Rogers.

Minor detail, the names are reversed. But how could the Oct-Dec 1966
unit history have the wrong name (specifically a guy would would eject
two months later)? Easy, the Oct-Dec 1966 unit history is dated 28 Jan
67...but clearly it was not important enough to maintain
contemporaneous records under the Sqdn CC at the time. I suspect the
unit history guy had to scramble and come up with a Oct-Dec report
sometime in the middle of Feb 1967, and simply dated it 28 Jan.

How do I "know" the unit history is wrong (I had just turned 10 y/o
the day after the first loss)? Two guys that knew Rogers (but don't
know each other) confirmed the event. Can't get much more detailed
than the guy's Flt Commander that PCS'd a couple days after the
shootdown.

The core facts such as call-sign, target for the day, time, date, and
maybe weather can be captured after the fact,

Most of the time...99% or so as a WAG.

but the relationships, actions and (in those days) lack
of audio/video capture of the visuals and radio calls
makes it difficult to get the tactical situation.

True, afterall it is the last guy with the chalk (or the Target Arm)
in the debrief that wins the fight.

As we old tuskers head off to the elephant graveyard, there will be
fewer and fewer recollections of what "really" happened and more and
more pointy-headed academics telling us what it was actually like.

Indeed, I've gotten at least two or three, "no ****..." I was
responsible for such and such tactic from guys who say the other guy
is full of ****.

But the diverse quality of unit histories from your war is amazing.
Honest! I've read some great ones with detailed diagrams of tactics,
and grossly uninteresting ones where the additional-duty sqdn
historian simply went through the motions. Compared to WWII or Korea
unit histories, SEA comes in a distant 3rd. As Marshall Michel has
said, the stuff at Maxwell has pretty much been "mined" for all the
nuggets a researcher can find.

And...as great as Michel's "Clashes" is (and it is GREAT), he was more
than a little kind when detailing some of the gross buffonery. See
page 195 for his desciption of Falcon 74 (Stanley/O'Brien both
rescued) and Falcon 75 (Wells/Hildebrand both POWs). And Michel does
not agree with Ritchie's firm belief that Carl Bailey and "Fang"
Feinstein shotdown Kula and Matsui on 29 Jul 1972.

But I digress...

Juvat (sincerely humbled by the shadow of gentlemen like you Ed)

Juvat wrote
Ivan...a cut and paste job from Dalley's online catalog...

Hello

I was out for 3 weeks, sorry for my late response.

Thank you very much, highly interesting.

Would you mind if I ask for your e-mail address. I would like to ask you something.
You can send it to my mail address on the top if you dont want other guys to see it.

Regards
Ivan