Setting QNH

BTIZ wrote:

well... I've not seen an altimeter in US aircraft that can dial out 5000ft
of altitude.. that would mean the altimeter would have to be adjustable from
29.92 to 24.92, and mine only goes to 28.10

It may be a regional problem. In certain European contries, QFE setting
is common for approach. So the altimeters sold here are designed for this.

BTW, when doing acro, the scale range isn't a problem. Just turn the
knob before takeoff until the meter shows zero. No need to have a
calibrated kolman scale for this.

Stefan

Welcome back Dudley.

Do the Leader and Solo T-birds use 'crib' sheets showing the maneuvers
with entry airspeed and altitude normalized for field where they are
performing?

If not, that might be a 'cheap' and easy safety procedure.

See where next years team was formalized and have started working
together.

And a nice day to thee.

BJ
Pilot ROCAF


On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 17:37:29 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:


"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:srO2c.16250$id3.4338@fed1read01...
ok.. I may be backwards... I don't normally define the use of Q
settings..

The bottom line is, the discussion was brought up with the AF T-Bird
doing
acro and not computing the altitude needed at the top of a maneuver to
safely pull out above ground level. Some argue to set the altimeter to
zero
elevation before takeoff. It just can't be done in many places out west.

IIRC, this discussion earlier revealed that the T-bird pilots have
super-wizzo-thingummy altimeters that can indeed set QFE at high
elevations.
Granted, yours and mine can't.

-- David Brooks

Hi David;

The Thunderbirds use a standard altimeter setting for the point of
demonstration and do not use a 0 altimeter set. Their maneuver profiles are
corrected to MSL altitudes. Stricklin unfortunately on the way up the front
side of his maneuver mentally "corrected" his reverse top target gate to
Nellis' elevation instead of where he was. This put the Viper way low of
where it should have been at the top side commit. He missed his visual cues
as well. The airplane simply didn't have the g available vs the altitude
under it to cut the corner.
Dudley

Hi BJ;
Hope all is well with you these days.

Yes; you are correct about that John. I haven't talked with the new guys, as
my association with the team involves us "older" folks :-)) but the
procedure in both the official TB regulations for the team and the preflight
brief as far as I know haven't been changed through the years from using the
field elevation at the show sites as a MSL reference for both the Diamond
and solo maneuver target altitudes. The trick is remembering the targets!
What happens is very subtle and could bite anyone as it bit Stricklin.
When you practice day after day at the same location as the team does at
Indian Springs near Nellis, your subconscious can store this repetitious
data as a constant. Then you go to another location and fly a demonstration
there. You go through a normal brief and note the target properly as being
different naturally, because of the difference in field elevations between
the two points. Then you enter the front side of the maneuver knowing full
well the briefed top target and then something happens....a slight
distraction.....doesn't have to be much.....something breaks that intense
concentration you have going up....then suddenly the distraction's vanished
and you snap back immediately. Your eye catches the altimeter at exactly the
altitude your subconscious has stored and you react instinctively and
initiate the reverse. Nothing else is out of place and you haven't picked it
up yet as even a possible error. The result of this is that you miss the
visual cues as well that should be telling you you're a full thousand feet
lower in the reverse than you should be. Your airspeed is in the energy gate
parameters so absolutely nothing is caught that should be screaming at you
to exit out in roll and call a maneuver miss. Once you commit past the
inverted gate, you're dead already. This is exactly what happed to Strickin.
He had a brain fart on the frontside and missed every cue that he should
have caught.
The team is looking hard at the broken concentration issue. but I doubt if
the procedure for using field elevation for maneuver targets will change.
The final result will probably be a "head's up" official report stressing
the need for unbroken concentration at all times by all team members. Also,
in all preflight briefs, it's common practice to have each team member
answer a safety question given by the boss. I'm fairly certain that just
before the usual compulsory in cadence hand slapping on the desktops begins,
this "head's up" on concentration will be a required reminder by the boss to
each position. I'm looking for this is ALL teams as well...throughout the
world, as with something like this....EVERYBODY learns!!
Dudley


"Big John" wrote in message
...
Welcome back Dudley.

Do the Leader and Solo T-birds use 'crib' sheets showing the maneuvers
with entry airspeed and altitude normalized for field where they are
performing?

If not, that might be a 'cheap' and easy safety procedure.

See where next years team was formalized and have started working
together.

And a nice day to thee.

BJ
Pilot ROCAF


On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 17:37:29 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:


"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:srO2c.16250$id3.4338@fed1read01...
ok.. I may be backwards... I don't normally define the use of Q
settings..

The bottom line is, the discussion was brought up with the AF T-Bird
doing
acro and not computing the altitude needed at the top of a maneuver
to
safely pull out above ground level. Some argue to set the altimeter
to
zero
elevation before takeoff. It just can't be done in many places out
west.

IIRC, this discussion earlier revealed that the T-bird pilots have
super-wizzo-thingummy altimeters that can indeed set QFE at high
elevations.
Granted, yours and mine can't.

-- David Brooks

Hi David;

The Thunderbirds use a standard altimeter setting for the point of
demonstration and do not use a 0 altimeter set. Their maneuver profiles
are
corrected to MSL altitudes. Stricklin unfortunately on the way up the
front
side of his maneuver mentally "corrected" his reverse top target gate to
Nellis' elevation instead of where he was. This put the Viper way low of
where it should have been at the top side commit. He missed his visual
cues
as well. The airplane simply didn't have the g available vs the altitude
under it to cut the corner.
Dudley

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message link.net...
Then, when the airplane makes it out into the general fighter community, we
get a hold of it and rename it to suit ourselves. That's the name that
sticks. Hence the "Viper" tag!

Thanks for the explanation. I was familiar with the renaming
process (i.e. Warthogs and Bones), but hadn't ever heard the "Viper"
tag.

Thanks,

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Dudley

Understand. I on several occasions was sent around for some reason or
another and after cleaning up bird was cleared for a closed pattern,
close base and short final.

My normal landing used the standard GUMP check and several
transmissions of "Gear down and locked", the last turning final and
with the change in procedure I almost landed wheels up a couple of
times over the years because my concentration was broken.. Only didn't
because of my 'double rubber' approach to things when I was flying on
the edge with hard adherence to check lists.

If your up in the air you can get away with a lot but low there is
maybe only one shot so it better be a good one (or be lucky)..

The TB accident has been covered pretty well so we should leave it and
let it RIP. As you stated, those in the business will learn from what
happened, but it was an expensive dollar wise teacher.

New subject. Did you spin the '51 when you were flying it?

May luck be with you.

Big John


On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 19:19:33 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

Hi BJ;
Hope all is well with you these days.

Yes; you are correct about that John. I haven't talked with the new guys, as
my association with the team involves us "older" folks :-)) but the
procedure in both the official TB regulations for the team and the preflight
brief as far as I know haven't been changed through the years from using the
field elevation at the show sites as a MSL reference for both the Diamond
and solo maneuver target altitudes. The trick is remembering the targets!
What happens is very subtle and could bite anyone as it bit Stricklin.
When you practice day after day at the same location as the team does at
Indian Springs near Nellis, your subconscious can store this repetitious
data as a constant. Then you go to another location and fly a demonstration
there. You go through a normal brief and note the target properly as being
different naturally, because of the difference in field elevations between
the two points. Then you enter the front side of the maneuver knowing full
well the briefed top target and then something happens....a slight
distraction.....doesn't have to be much.....something breaks that intense
concentration you have going up....then suddenly the distraction's vanished
and you snap back immediately. Your eye catches the altimeter at exactly the
altitude your subconscious has stored and you react instinctively and
initiate the reverse. Nothing else is out of place and you haven't picked it
up yet as even a possible error. The result of this is that you miss the
visual cues as well that should be telling you you're a full thousand feet
lower in the reverse than you should be. Your airspeed is in the energy gate
parameters so absolutely nothing is caught that should be screaming at you
to exit out in roll and call a maneuver miss. Once you commit past the
inverted gate, you're dead already. This is exactly what happed to Strickin.
He had a brain fart on the frontside and missed every cue that he should
have caught.
The team is looking hard at the broken concentration issue. but I doubt if
the procedure for using field elevation for maneuver targets will change.
The final result will probably be a "head's up" official report stressing
the need for unbroken concentration at all times by all team members. Also,
in all preflight briefs, it's common practice to have each team member
answer a safety question given by the boss. I'm fairly certain that just
before the usual compulsory in cadence hand slapping on the desktops begins,
this "head's up" on concentration will be a required reminder by the boss to
each position. I'm looking for this is ALL teams as well...throughout the
world, as with something like this....EVERYBODY learns!!
Dudley

----clip----

New subject. Did you spin the '51 when you were flying it?

Yes, very reliable recovery in the civilian configured airframes.
VL

"Big John" wrote in message
...
Dudley

Understand. I on several occasions was sent around for some reason or
another and after cleaning up bird was cleared for a closed pattern,
close base and short final.

My normal landing used the standard GUMP check and several
transmissions of "Gear down and locked", the last turning final and
with the change in procedure I almost landed wheels up a couple of
times over the years because my concentration was broken.. Only didn't
because of my 'double rubber' approach to things when I was flying on
the edge with hard adherence to check lists.

If your up in the air you can get away with a lot but low there is
maybe only one shot so it better be a good one (or be lucky)..

The TB accident has been covered pretty well so we should leave it and
let it RIP. As you stated, those in the business will learn from what
happened, but it was an expensive dollar wise teacher.

New subject. Did you spin the '51 when you were flying it?

I've spun it power off, but never with power on.
Dudley

"MLenoch" wrote in message
...
New subject. Did you spin the '51 when you were flying it?

Yes, very reliable recovery in the civilian configured airframes.
VL

Vlado; if you ever get a free minute and have the data handy, can you whiz
me a list of the exact changes made from the straight military config ? I
had the data and lost it.
Thanks
Dudley

Dud:
Items deleted:
Guns, ammo feed belts, ammo tray, cockpit armor, old radio, battery relocated
to engine bay, rear fuel tank removed, canopy arch-brace, gunsight sometimes,
rear seat added, bomb racks sometimes.
One can estimate the weight reduction from the various items above. Not all
civilian Mustangs are exactly alike. Every owner has their favorite
flavor/configuration. The full up restorations handle differently than the
'stripped' civilian combinations.
Hope this helps,
VL

Was there a cutoff point in all these reductions where the cg changed to the
point where it affected the landing characteristics? I can't remember where
the Cavs came in with GW with all this trimming down going on . The cg had
to move around some and affect the trim on landing. For example, on your
bird, I take it you're light; are you critical on landing for trim use
perhaps, and if so, are you ok through the entire fuel range in the mains?
Dud

"MLenoch" wrote in message
...
Dud:
Items deleted:
Guns, ammo feed belts, ammo tray, cockpit armor, old radio, battery
relocated
to engine bay, rear fuel tank removed, canopy arch-brace, gunsight
sometimes,
rear seat added, bomb racks sometimes.
One can estimate the weight reduction from the various items above. Not
all
civilian Mustangs are exactly alike. Every owner has their favorite
flavor/configuration. The full up restorations handle differently than the
'stripped' civilian combinations.
Hope this helps,
VL