Advice on buying a 152?

rajek wrote:
I'm considering buying a 1978 Cessna 152 that the owner is leasing to a
flying club. I'd continue to lease it to the club and learn to fly in
it. (I have 3 1/2 hours now.) I'd hope that plane to earn enough money
to cover most of its maintenance and insurance, including a new engine
in a few years.

I met with the owner of the club this afternoon and we went over some
numbers. The plane and the club's other 152 have done a good job of
earning their keep so far. I could accept not quite breaking even.

I understand that renting is cheaper but I'm really excited about the
idea of owning a plane. I also really like that particular model. I flew
one on my last lesson and it was a lot of fun.

Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last
overhaul.

I'd also appreciate any comments or advice.

If you're sure 152 is the model you want, surf over to
http://www.aeroprice.com/. For $20 or so you can get a valuation of the
particular plane you are looking at, or for $50 or so you can get their software
for evaluating as many instances as you like of a particular model (e.g. 152).
The expense is trivial compared to the value of the knowledge.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

Dave S wrote:
Oh yea..

Be VERY wary/cautious of a club, school or operator that encourages YOU
to buy a plane for the purpose of them leasing it back from you,
particularly if they also perform the maintenance in-house and bill it
to you.

Good point. I'm one of those who has had a leaseback and was satisfied with the
experience. I may or may not have made a little money, it was close. The OP said
he was OK with just having the lease cover much of the expense and not
necessarily making a profit, which I think is realistic... but Dave S's advice
is good. I'd have my lease contract make *me* responsible for providing an
airworthy aircraft, so I can shop around for maintenance services. Giving the
lessee free rein to do maintenance as required and bill you for it is like
writing a blank check.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

Dude wrote:

And I would still be
ahead so long as I avoid recapture. Avoiding recapture is simple enough, so
that's not a problem.

Do tell. How do you avoid recapture? (besides selling it for less than
the depreciated basis, of course). I've always looked at all these
"accelerated depreciation" posts and thought "recapture is going to kill
them." I would really like to know your trick for avoiding it.

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:54:39 -0400, TTA Cherokee Driver
wrote:

Do tell. How do you avoid recapture? (besides selling it for less than
the depreciated basis, of course). I've always looked at all these
"accelerated depreciation" posts and thought "recapture is going to kill
them." I would really like to know your trick for avoiding it.

Like-kind exchange. Upgrade to a newer/bigger aircraft. The way I
understand it, it boils down to owning an aircraft for the rest of
your life and the estate has to account for/pay back any recapture.

I just bought an IFR certified C152 1979 model for 21,500. Around
1000 on a 2400 engine. Immaculate and in VERY good condition. It has
been hangared for the last 19 years and flies extremely well. I too
was offered the chance to do a lease back with the flight school
locally, but DON'T DO IT unless you want to come out to fly and find
the thing bent, abused and in shoddy condition. Spend the money on
the plane, learn to fly, then sell it and move up.

You can find one that you like for 20 to 25 K easily and you'll be
much happier. The lease back options leave you open for all kinds of
expenses and you have to pay insurance, etc.

Be careful out there.

A new pilot and 152 owner.

Patrick Wilson
www.w4pw.org
68007


Dave Butler wrote in message ...
rajek wrote:
I'm considering buying a 1978 Cessna 152 that the owner is leasing to a
flying club. I'd continue to lease it to the club and learn to fly in
it. (I have 3 1/2 hours now.) I'd hope that plane to earn enough money
to cover most of its maintenance and insurance, including a new engine
in a few years.

I met with the owner of the club this afternoon and we went over some
numbers. The plane and the club's other 152 have done a good job of
earning their keep so far. I could accept not quite breaking even.

I understand that renting is cheaper but I'm really excited about the
idea of owning a plane. I also really like that particular model. I flew
one on my last lesson and it was a lot of fun.

Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last
overhaul.

I'd also appreciate any comments or advice.

If you're sure 152 is the model you want, surf over to
http://www.aeroprice.com/. For $20 or so you can get a valuation of the
particular plane you are looking at, or for $50 or so you can get their software
for evaluating as many instances as you like of a particular model (e.g. 152).
The expense is trivial compared to the value of the knowledge.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

The lease back options leave you open for all kinds of
expenses and you have to pay insurance, etc.


How many leased-back airplanes have you owned, then?

Dave Butler wrote in message
How many leased-back airplanes have you owned, then?

I own a C-150 with a patient, understanding partner. BOth of us are
new to the experience. It has worked out great so far, both of us are
on the same wavelength. I am trying to figure out why a lease-back
would work. The importance of ownership (to many) is that the plane
is as you left it, or as your partner left it. Since both of you own
a stake in the plane, it is well taken care of.

With a leaseback, you are another renter, but different in that you
bear the burden of all the expense, annual, 100 hr inspections,
break/fix, etc. and you still don't get to take it when you want to.
Where is the advantage to that?

In my experience as a first time owner, having a partner or three to
divide the expenses (and there ARE expenses) has made the experience,
overall, wonderful.

Best,

Greg H.
N4691X
'67-G

rajek wrote:

I'm considering buying a 1978 Cessna 152 that the owner is leasing to a
snip
Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last
overhaul.

I'd also appreciate any comments or advice.

Thanks!

http://www.whodat.net/n714yz

Engine time is about the same, alot less on the price, nicely equipped
and low time on the airframe...

Greg Hopp wrote:

With a leaseback, you are another renter, but different in that you
bear the burden of all the expense, annual, 100 hr inspections,
break/fix, etc. and you still don't get to take it when you want to.
Where is the advantage to that?

The terms of leases vary. You may indeed bear all these expenses; if so, you also get
the lion's share of the rental proceeds. In some leases, the FBO pays all the
expenses and you get a small part of the rental proceeds. In either case, your income
from rental is the "advantage to that"; you are indeed just another renter when it
comes to flying the plane.

Ron Natalie used to point out that a leaseback is a business, and you should treat it
as one. If you do that, the plane is just a business asset and you're likely to make
money at it. If you lease your aircraft out as a way to make the payments on "your
baby", the results will not please you.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

Greg Hopp wrote:
Dave Butler wrote in message

How many leased-back airplanes have you owned, then?

My question above was directed to a poster who seemed to be expressing an
opinion based on no experience. Since he didn't respond, I'm guessing -his-
answer would be -none-.


I own a C-150 with a patient, understanding partner. BOth of us are
new to the experience. It has worked out great so far, both of us are
on the same wavelength. I am trying to figure out why a lease-back
would work. The importance of ownership (to many) is that the plane
is as you left it, or as your partner left it. Since both of you own
a stake in the plane, it is well taken care of.

With a leaseback, you are another renter, but different in that you
bear the burden of all the expense, annual, 100 hr inspections,
break/fix, etc. and you still don't get to take it when you want to.
Where is the advantage to that?

With a leaseback, you are whatever the terms of the lease say you are. You are
responsible for whatever the terms of the lease say you are responsible for. You
can take it whenever the terms of the lease say you can take it. If you don't
like the terms of the lease, don't sign it.

Assume for a minute that the terms are those that you assume in the previous
paragraph. The advantage might be that you gain experience in aircraft ownership
while reducing your out-of-pocket expense. Your aircraft gets flown, instead of
sitting on the ramp corroding. The fixed costs of tiedown, insurance, annual
inspections, etc are amortized over a larger usage base, lowering your hourly
cost. I'm sure you can think of more. Heck, it's even possible to come out
financially ahead. There are lots of people with different goals and different
expectations. Some will see an advantage in a lease, and some won't.


In my experience as a first time owner, having a partner or three to
divide the expenses (and there ARE expenses) has made the experience,
overall, wonderful.

I've had two partnership experiences, one excellent, one troublesome.

Dave