Glider near miss with Airliner (emergency climb) near Chicago yesterday?

A little background about the Class B at O’Hare and how it works.

I have been flying airliners out of O’Hare for 31 years. I also fly gliders in the Chicagoland area. I live 23 miles due west of runway 10C at O’Hare. The Class B Airspace that extends west over my house ranges from 10000 ft down to 4000 ft. With an elevation of 890 feet, that puts airliners on approach to 10C at 3110 ft AGL over my house, 23 miles from touchdown. In VFR conditions, (like it was last Monday), Chicago ATC will descend aircraft to the lowest altitude possible and ask the pilot if he has the airport in site. If the pilot acknowledges he has the airport in sight, ATC will clear him for a visual approach. If the pilot accepts the visual approach, this relieves the controller from providing separation and traffic advisories. The pilot is on his own and can maneuver his aircraft as he/she wishes to landing.

Mondays weather at KRFD (Rockford, which is south of Beloit and Janesville) was reporting between 8000 and 9500 scattered clouds in mid afternoon. (An excellent soaring day for the Midwest in September).

Now let’s look at the Janesville 8 Arrival into O’Hare. It shows an “Expect clearance to cross� 30 miles northwest of the Janesville VOR at 13000 ft. The next crossing altitude is the Teddy intersection (22 miles southeast of the Janesville VOR) at 7000 ft. That 7000 ft crossing is 42 miles from ORD.

HOWEVER!, this aircraft was not on the Janesville arrival. This a/c was receiving vectors from ATC (in my opinion). Looking at the flightaware track of this flight, it came from the north, over Wisconsin heading south, west of Janesville, then made a slight left turn towards Beloit Wi. The aircraft now at 10000 ft made a left 360 degree turn followed by a right 270 which put it on a heading of 110. The airliner was given a clearance to descend while still west of South Beloit. The trace shows it at 9000 ft west of South Beloit descending at 1000ft/m. At 8000 feet the airliner was approximately 1 mile southwest of the Beloit gliderport. The a/c leveled off 7 miles north of Poplar Grove Airport at 7000 feet, 57 miles from ORD, well outside the Class B airspace. It then flew 22 miles at 7000ft to Woodstock Illinois before turning south and then east into O’Hare.

What we don’t know is why this a/c made the turns near Beloit. If, for example, is was for a traffic advisory, ATC would have just given the a/c one or two course direction turns to get out of the way of the traffic. Were the 360 and 270 turns for spacing into O’Hare? The ATC voice tapes and data trace will reveal why.

Why was this a/c given a clearance to descend to 7000 feet so far from ORD?

In my opinion and with none of us knowing all the facts, there is a good chance we will find their was some controller error in this situation.

Ref: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U.../KORD/tracklog

F2

Thanks Don: I know one flight into O'Hare on a United flight we descended to 12,000 ft 50 miles out "Looking for a smoother ride". I was nervous as hell we were in the realm of GA aircraft, I would have much preferred to stay in Class A or above 15,000 ft at least for as long as possible.

On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 9:20:13 AM UTC-7, Don Grillo wrote:
A little background about the Class B at O’Hare and how it works.

I have been flying airliners out of O’Hare for 31 years. I also fly gliders in the Chicagoland area. I live 23 miles due west of runway 10C at O’Hare. The Class B Airspace that extends west over my house ranges from 10000 ft down to 4000 ft. With an elevation of 890 feet, that puts airliners on approach to 10C at 3110 ft AGL over my house, 23 miles from touchdown. In VFR conditions, (like it was last Monday), Chicago ATC will descend aircraft to the lowest altitude possible and ask the pilot if he has the airport in site. If the pilot acknowledges he has the airport in sight, ATC will clear him for a visual approach. If the pilot accepts the visual approach, this relieves the controller from providing separation and traffic advisories. The pilot is on his own and can maneuver his aircraft as he/she wishes to landing.

Mondays weather at KRFD (Rockford, which is south of Beloit and Janesville) was reporting between 8000 and 9500 scattered clouds in mid afternoon. (An excellent soaring day for the Midwest in September).

Now let’s look at the Janesville 8 Arrival into O’Hare. It shows an “Expect clearance to cross� 30 miles northwest of the Janesville VOR at 13000 ft. The next crossing altitude is the Teddy intersection (22 miles southeast of the Janesville VOR) at 7000 ft. That 7000 ft crossing is 42 miles from ORD.

HOWEVER!, this aircraft was not on the Janesville arrival. This a/c was receiving vectors from ATC (in my opinion). Looking at the flightaware track of this flight, it came from the north, over Wisconsin heading south, west of Janesville, then made a slight left turn towards Beloit Wi. The aircraft now at 10000 ft made a left 360 degree turn followed by a right 270 which put it on a heading of 110. The airliner was given a clearance to descend while still west of South Beloit. The trace shows it at 9000 ft west of South Beloit descending at 1000ft/m. At 8000 feet the airliner was approximately 1 mile southwest of the Beloit gliderport. The a/c leveled off 7 miles north of Poplar Grove Airport at 7000 feet, 57 miles from ORD, well outside the Class B airspace. It then flew 22 miles at 7000ft to Woodstock Illinois before turning south and then east into O’Hare.

What we don’t know is why this a/c made the turns near Beloit. If, for example, is was for a traffic advisory, ATC would have just given the a/c one or two course direction turns to get out of the way of the traffic. Were the 360 and 270 turns for spacing into O’Hare? The ATC voice tapes and data trace will reveal why.

Why was this a/c given a clearance to descend to 7000 feet so far from ORD?

In my opinion and with none of us knowing all the facts, there is a good chance we will find their was some controller error in this situation.

Ref: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U.../KORD/tracklog

F2

It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it.
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft..

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.

On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 5:13:57 PM UTC-4, mic pilot wrote:
It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it.
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft.

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.

Hi Mic,

Wellllllll... since a lot of this is all new to me it's a cinch that it's new to many, if not most glider pilots. Never heard of a STAR until this discussion. Didn't know you could get free copies :-).

This would be a good opportunity for some knowledgeable glider + airline pilot or glider pilot + ATC guy to do an article or two. Let me be first to provide such encouragement.

But I really have to wonder about the wisdom of bringing big iron down below 8000 that far out of class B in VFR conditions. Actually, I don't "wonder" at all, I think it's unconscionably stupid. Feel free to give me a reason to change my mind.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 4:24:48 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 5:13:57 PM UTC-4, mic pilot wrote:
It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it.
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft.

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.

Hi Mic,

Wellllllll... since a lot of this is all new to me it's a cinch that it's new to many, if not most glider pilots. Never heard of a STAR until this discussion. Didn't know you could get free copies :-).

This would be a good opportunity for some knowledgeable glider + airline pilot or glider pilot + ATC guy to do an article or two. Let me be first to provide such encouragement.

But I really have to wonder about the wisdom of bringing big iron down below 8000 that far out of class B in VFR conditions. Actually, I don't "wonder" at all, I think it's unconscionably stupid. Feel free to give me a reason to change my mind.

It seems very strange to me too. Especially in the USA where (last I heard) it's still legal to float around in a Tiger Moth without an electrical system, let alone a radio.

In New Zealand, even quite small towns such as Napier (60k), Gisborne (36k), New Plymouth (57k) have controlled airspace around them, and as far as I know commercial IFR flights are kept entirely out of uncontrolled airpace.

https://skyvector.com/?ll=-38.585102...t=301&zo om=9

Smaller towns with scheduled service such as Taupo (24k), Kerikeri (7k) don't.

Whangarei (56k) is I think the only anomaly of being relatively large but without controlled airspace. (or maybe Gisborne is the anomaly)

On Tuesday, 3 October 2017 07:24:48 UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 5:13:57 PM UTC-4, mic pilot wrote:
It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it.
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft.

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.

Hi Mic,

Wellllllll... since a lot of this is all new to me it's a cinch that it's new to many, if not most glider pilots. Never heard of a STAR until this discussion. Didn't know you could get free copies :-).

This would be a good opportunity for some knowledgeable glider + airline pilot or glider pilot + ATC guy to do an article or two. Let me be first to provide such encouragement.

But I really have to wonder about the wisdom of bringing big iron down below 8000 that far out of class B in VFR conditions. Actually, I don't "wonder" at all, I think it's unconscionably stupid. Feel free to give me a reason to change my mind.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

Evan, here in Northern and Central Utah we have built a great relationship with the folks at Salt Lake Center, commercial, and Clover Center, military, over the last 3-4 years. We are fortunate to have a number of commercial pilots within the ranks of the club and one retired ATC pilot.

I flew out of the Minden NV and Truckee CA airports a couple of summers ago and was impressed with the documented procedures they have established with the Northern CA ATC for traffic going into and out of Reno NV. We used their documents, with permission, as templates and sat down with the folks at Salt Lake Air Traffic Control.

On the club web site http://utahsoaring.org/ we have provided three documents for all pilots (you can follow the links from the main page of the web site or use the links below)

Talking to Air Traffic Control - http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...%20Control.pdf this document reviews the "lingo" that best to use when speaking with ATC

Flow Maps:

SLC North http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...0N%20Plate.pdf
SLC South http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...0S%20Plate.pdf

These maps are designed to be printed and kept in glider cockpits for quick reference. They were developed by the folks at SLC ATC


Recommended Communication Procedures For Flying Gliders - http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...%20Rev%201.pdf

This document is lengthy but reviews all the airports currently used in Northern and Central UT by the club for soaring operations, procedures, communications and a link to SkyVector for all the STAR (arrival) and RD (departure) routes.

I would encourage you and your club to contact and meet with the appropriate ATC personal and discuss soaring activities, locations and procedures. I am sure you will be welcomed.

If you would like some contact information for the personal in SLC to provide to your local ATC folks, contact me directly and I will be happy to share.

Ron Gleason


PS - I will encourage the pilot that is retired ATC to provide an article to soaring magazine

On Tuesday, 3 October 2017 09:04:27 UTC-6, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Tuesday, 3 October 2017 07:24:48 UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 5:13:57 PM UTC-4, mic pilot wrote:
It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it..
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft.

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.

Hi Mic,

Wellllllll... since a lot of this is all new to me it's a cinch that it's new to many, if not most glider pilots. Never heard of a STAR until this discussion. Didn't know you could get free copies :-).

This would be a good opportunity for some knowledgeable glider + airline pilot or glider pilot + ATC guy to do an article or two. Let me be first to provide such encouragement.

But I really have to wonder about the wisdom of bringing big iron down below 8000 that far out of class B in VFR conditions. Actually, I don't "wonder" at all, I think it's unconscionably stupid. Feel free to give me a reason to change my mind.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

Evan, here in Northern and Central Utah we have built a great relationship with the folks at Salt Lake Center, commercial, and Clover Center, military, over the last 3-4 years. We are fortunate to have a number of commercial pilots within the ranks of the club and one retired ATC pilot.

I flew out of the Minden NV and Truckee CA airports a couple of summers ago and was impressed with the documented procedures they have established with the Northern CA ATC for traffic going into and out of Reno NV. We used their documents, with permission, as templates and sat down with the folks at Salt Lake Air Traffic Control.

On the club web site http://utahsoaring.org/ we have provided three documents for all pilots (you can follow the links from the main page of the web site or use the links below)

Talking to Air Traffic Control - http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...%20Control.pdf this document reviews the "lingo" that best to use when speaking with ATC

Flow Maps:

SLC North http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...0N%20Plate.pdf
SLC South http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...0S%20Plate.pdf

These maps are designed to be printed and kept in glider cockpits for quick reference. They were developed by the folks at SLC ATC


Recommended Communication Procedures For Flying Gliders - http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...%20Rev%201.pdf

This document is lengthy but reviews all the airports currently used in Northern and Central UT by the club for soaring operations, procedures, communications and a link to SkyVector for all the STAR (arrival) and RD (departure) routes.

I would encourage you and your club to contact and meet with the appropriate ATC personal and discuss soaring activities, locations and procedures. I am sure you will be welcomed.

If you would like some contact information for the personal in SLC to provide to your local ATC folks, contact me directly and I will be happy to share.

Ron Gleason


PS - I will encourage the pilot that is retired ATC to provide an article to soaring magazine

One other note, all instructors within the club review these procedures with their students when appropriate. During the spring checkouts, all pilots must get a checkout to utilize club gliders, a review is done and the club sponsors 1-3 winter meetings and we review the procedures, ask questions and some years we role play and have a complete simulated radio discussion between ATC and the glider. The folks from SLC ATC have come to the winter meetings, answered questions, taken feedback and most importantly put a face to voice on the radio.

On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 11:04:27 AM UTC-4, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Tuesday, 3 October 2017 07:24:48 UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 5:13:57 PM UTC-4, mic pilot wrote:
It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it..
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft.

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.

Hi Mic,

Wellllllll... since a lot of this is all new to me it's a cinch that it's new to many, if not most glider pilots. Never heard of a STAR until this discussion. Didn't know you could get free copies :-).

This would be a good opportunity for some knowledgeable glider + airline pilot or glider pilot + ATC guy to do an article or two. Let me be first to provide such encouragement.

But I really have to wonder about the wisdom of bringing big iron down below 8000 that far out of class B in VFR conditions. Actually, I don't "wonder" at all, I think it's unconscionably stupid. Feel free to give me a reason to change my mind.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

Evan, here in Northern and Central Utah we have built a great relationship with the folks at Salt Lake Center, commercial, and Clover Center, military, over the last 3-4 years. We are fortunate to have a number of commercial pilots within the ranks of the club and one retired ATC pilot.

I flew out of the Minden NV and Truckee CA airports a couple of summers ago and was impressed with the documented procedures they have established with the Northern CA ATC for traffic going into and out of Reno NV. We used their documents, with permission, as templates and sat down with the folks at Salt Lake Air Traffic Control.

On the club web site http://utahsoaring.org/ we have provided three documents for all pilots (you can follow the links from the main page of the web site or use the links below)

Talking to Air Traffic Control - http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...%20Control.pdf this document reviews the "lingo" that best to use when speaking with ATC

Flow Maps:

SLC North http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...0N%20Plate.pdf
SLC South http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...0S%20Plate.pdf

These maps are designed to be printed and kept in glider cockpits for quick reference. They were developed by the folks at SLC ATC


Recommended Communication Procedures For Flying Gliders - http://utahsoaring.org/Documents/SLC...%20Rev%201.pdf

This document is lengthy but reviews all the airports currently used in Northern and Central UT by the club for soaring operations, procedures, communications and a link to SkyVector for all the STAR (arrival) and RD (departure) routes.

I would encourage you and your club to contact and meet with the appropriate ATC personal and discuss soaring activities, locations and procedures. I am sure you will be welcomed.

If you would like some contact information for the personal in SLC to provide to your local ATC folks, contact me directly and I will be happy to share.

Ron Gleason


PS - I will encourage the pilot that is retired ATC to provide an article to soaring magazine

Hi Ron,

Great stuff, thank you for sharing!

We don't have this issue at my home club, but I travel... I'm quite interested in learning this stuff and raising awareness.

best,
Evan

On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 9:24:48 AM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 5:13:57 PM UTC-4, mic pilot wrote:
It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it.
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft.

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.

Hi Mic,

Wellllllll... since a lot of this is all new to me it's a cinch that it's new to many, if not most glider pilots. Never heard of a STAR until this discussion. Didn't know you could get free copies :-).

This would be a good opportunity for some knowledgeable glider + airline pilot or glider pilot + ATC guy to do an article or two. Let me be first to provide such encouragement.

But I really have to wonder about the wisdom of bringing big iron down below 8000 that far out of class B in VFR conditions. Actually, I don't "wonder" at all, I think it's unconscionably stupid. Feel free to give me a reason to change my mind.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

At our operation in the Hudson valley of New York we have been dealing with this situation for many years. Heavies come over us at about 7000 feet, sometimes about 6000 feet, more than 40 miles from their destination at Newark.
I recently got a phone call from a man at Boston Center(they control this airspace)in response to a reported conflict in our area between a jet and a glider. Not characterized as a near miss(hit?).
He asked if we know about the jets flying overhead.
I said yes.
I described how we know of them and what we do to avoid conflict.
It turns out that the conflict was near a VOR about 10 miles away and happened on a day we were not flying. We avoid the area of the VOR. I explained this and why.
He then asked how many gliders we would have in the air, stating his assumption that it would be 3 or 4.
When I explained that it could be 5 to 20 at altitudes of surface to the top of the convective layer, and could commonly be 6000 to 7000 feet, he got very quiet.
Next he asked how many had transponders. I told him about 20%.
Response was "Oh".
I asked why they are so low 40 miles out and got no explanation.
The take away for me was:
1)ATC does not know we are there, even though charts depict our activity.
2) They wrongly assume everybody has a transponder.
3)They do not take the time to make themselves aware of avoidable conflict.
4)We have to make ourselves aware of the conflict conditions and avoid those places.
FWIW
UH

It is really frustrating that for the most part, both the flying and non-flying public/lawmakers/administrators/controllers and even fellow aviators, have little to no understanding of how glider operate and what they can do. During the 18 meter nationals the CD had multiple calls with local Air Force Base, during one such call the CD was asked is the gliders could just stay within 5 miles of Uvalde, and I know the Air Force has gliders.


On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 8:04:57 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 3, 2017 at 9:24:48 AM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 5:13:57 PM UTC-4, mic pilot wrote:
It seems like this incident took place near teddy intersection at approx. 7000 msl? That’s just a really bad place flying if you’re not talking to ATC, with or without a transponder. Teddy is major point on the arrival and anyone that’s flown into ORD has heard of it..
The flight aware track is deceiving because the jet does a few turns over Janesville at 10000msl but that’s not where the conflict took place. It was SE of JVL at 7000msl when the jet had to climb to miss an aircraft.

As glider pilots we really need to know where the jet traffic is and not go there unless you're in contact with ATC. Look up all the major airports you fly near on Airnav.com, read about the runways, and especially the STAR arrivals, also frequencies, and phone numbers are helpful. You can download free copies of the STARS. Knowing what runways they are using based on winds the day of your flight can help.
Then on your flights, if the lift takes you near a busy intersection at the altitude used, call ATC. If you’re well below the traffic, maybe just listen? However, know that if you have a transponder and don’t call, you are causing a lot of chatter on a busy frequency. They will all be trying to figure out what you’re doing.

Hi Mic,

Wellllllll... since a lot of this is all new to me it's a cinch that it's new to many, if not most glider pilots. Never heard of a STAR until this discussion. Didn't know you could get free copies :-).

This would be a good opportunity for some knowledgeable glider + airline pilot or glider pilot + ATC guy to do an article or two. Let me be first to provide such encouragement.

But I really have to wonder about the wisdom of bringing big iron down below 8000 that far out of class B in VFR conditions. Actually, I don't "wonder" at all, I think it's unconscionably stupid. Feel free to give me a reason to change my mind.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

At our operation in the Hudson valley of New York we have been dealing with this situation for many years. Heavies come over us at about 7000 feet, sometimes about 6000 feet, more than 40 miles from their destination at Newark.
I recently got a phone call from a man at Boston Center(they control this airspace)in response to a reported conflict in our area between a jet and a glider. Not characterized as a near miss(hit?).
He asked if we know about the jets flying overhead.
I said yes.
I described how we know of them and what we do to avoid conflict.
It turns out that the conflict was near a VOR about 10 miles away and happened on a day we were not flying. We avoid the area of the VOR. I explained this and why.
He then asked how many gliders we would have in the air, stating his assumption that it would be 3 or 4.
When I explained that it could be 5 to 20 at altitudes of surface to the top of the convective layer, and could commonly be 6000 to 7000 feet, he got very quiet.
Next he asked how many had transponders. I told him about 20%.
Response was "Oh".
I asked why they are so low 40 miles out and got no explanation.
The take away for me was:
1)ATC does not know we are there, even though charts depict our activity.
2) They wrongly assume everybody has a transponder.
3)They do not take the time to make themselves aware of avoidable conflict.