What powered skills translate best to glider?

Joel:

Welcome to quiet flight ! Learning as a sailplane pilot first is a great advantage in an airman's career of flight. It is not unusual to be frustrated with a club's slower training schedule. You might consider an interval with a commercial glider school. Or . . . as you asked, hints follow.

1) What powered flight skills could I concentrate on that would best accelerate the learning curve in the glider?

Find an airplane CFI who will agree to offer you power-at-idle from abeam the touchdown point approaches. To do this you will most likely need to use an uncontrolled (non-towered) airfield. Most airplane folks are Not Comfortable with this idling-approach anymore in the USA.

Ask to use pitch for approach speed and power to adjust(extend) glide slope.. The simple choice is to have the CFI-A add flaps when they want to (preferably when they decide you are high on slope)... and leave you with only power adjustments. This is the closest replication of being 'above-glide' and
using spoilers to descend as in a glider. After a few like this, you can integrate the selection/addition of flaps.

If your Airplane CFI wants to use the now-typical (airliner-style) approach and follow the VASI lights, it will NOT be a good prep for glider flying. I now see almost exclusively the style of incremental power reductions in the pattern after having added partial flaps on downind and achieve full flaps on early final -- carrying some extra rpm until over the threshold. Then they chop and plop.

Ask the CFI-A to handle all the radio calls until you are comfortable with the machine and the approach slopes. (Limiting the distractions until proficiency is sufficient.) Since you are the customer, and are doing this to meet your criteria, they should be willing.

The use of taildraggers is good, if you can find them, for the rudder use required, as mentioned.


2) Would it be a better option to drive farther to get motoglider experience, or would the more nearby powered craft be just as good?

It depends on whether the motorglider teacher will also emulate the glider slope control as mentioned above. But the MG time offers control response rate more like a typical glider (more adverse aileron yaw due to span) and will be more productive in airwork, ie., thermalling, turning stall behavior. Ask to be relieved of motor management, again to limit the complexity and ease your budget versus the 'training time'. You have specific objectives.

The single most important component in learning is your relationship with the teacher. Explain your situation, and you should be pointed to someone who can be supportive. Have more questions later? Pop them back here, again..

Good luck and safe flying,

Cindy B

On Mon, 14 Sep 2015 16:43:16 -0700, 2G wrote:

Besides patterns and landing practice, you can do slow flight, stall
recognition and recovery, and steep banked turns. Most important, I
don't think any of the instruction would be counter productive.

There's possibly one item. One of my club's members added a PPL after
he'd soloed in gliders. He said he had a lot of problems until he
realised there is a fundamental difference that creeps into instructing:
in gliders we nail airspeed and don't much care about height, while power
pilots are taught to nail altitude (thanks to the quadrant rules) and
never mind airspeed variation.

I must say that, when I bought a ride in a Tiger Moth a couple of years
ago I found myself flying the ASI and ignoring the altimeter - and also
automatically heading for the juiciest cloud on track.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 6:17:45 PM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:


Buy CONDOR simulator program, USB stick and rudder pedals, and use the flight training part, in conjunction with your real-world training.

I'll second that. I'm currently training my son in gliders (13 years old). I introduce a concept (right now we're fine-tuning crosswind takeoffs and landings) in Condor. He practices a little during the week, and when we get to the airport on the weekend he's already been through the particular objectives several times. Plus, I can vary the conditions so he has to think through the situation.

I'm a CFI-G living in the same house as the student, so that provides some advantage. But, as long as you are diligent about process and pay attention to whatever syllabus you are using, sim time on Condor is hugely effective.

Erik Mann (P3)

Wow, this is an excellent newsgroup with lots of helpful folks and even details replies. Thanks for the input.

I'll look into Condor, the FSX glider wasn't helping with the feel of the controls much (non-crisp Schweitzer 233 trainer), but I imagine its more useful regarding positioning during landing.

My options appear to be a Tomahawk or the like with a CFIG, or maybe an Aviat Husky taildragger with a CFI. I think landings with the CFIG sounds like good practice for me, the instructor will probably be able to help replicate glider landings like Cindy suggested.

Cheers,
J

On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 11:58:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:

My options appear to be a Tomahawk or the like with a CFIG, or maybe an Aviat Husky taildragger with a CFI. I think landings with the CFIG sounds like good practice for me, the instructor will probably be able to help replicate glider landings like Cindy suggested.

Cheers,
J

I have an Aviat Husky and would recommend it over the Tomahawk - with reservations. The Husky is relatively complex compared to most training aircraft.. Perhaps more importantly, the instructor, unless built like a spidermonkey, will not have a great view of the instrument panel or access to controls save for stick, rudder, throttle transmit button, and slapping the backside of your head. Everything else will be your baby; mixture, prop, mags, flaps, all radio gear, engine monitoring, etc. This can present quite a load to a beginning student pilot who's active brain cells will often be near saturation learning to start the engine and taxi safely. I've heard a few instructors make unfavorable remarks re. the Husky's suitability as a primary trainer due to this.

I will say that if you learn to fly the Husky with finesse, you should be able to step into most any single engine with a minimum of fuss. Not because the Husky is all that difficult, it's an honest plane, but it isn't a pussycat. Oh, and for shear fun it'll spoil you for most other power planes!

On Wednesday, September 16, 2015 at 7:43:14 AM UTC+3, bumper wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 11:58:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:

My options appear to be a Tomahawk or the like with a CFIG, or maybe an Aviat Husky taildragger with a CFI. I think landings with the CFIG sounds like good practice for me, the instructor will probably be able to help replicate glider landings like Cindy suggested.

Cheers,
J

I have an Aviat Husky and would recommend it over the Tomahawk - with reservations. The Husky is relatively complex compared to most training aircraft. Perhaps more importantly, the instructor, unless built like a spidermonkey, will not have a great view of the instrument panel or access to controls save for stick, rudder, throttle transmit button, and slapping the backside of your head. Everything else will be your baby; mixture, prop, mags, flaps, all radio gear, engine monitoring, etc. This can present quite a load to a beginning student pilot who's active brain cells will often be near saturation learning to start the engine and taxi safely. I've heard a few instructors make unfavorable remarks re. the Husky's suitability as a primary trainer due to this.

I will say that if you learn to fly the Husky with finesse, you should be able to step into most any single engine with a minimum of fuss. Not because the Husky is all that difficult, it's an honest plane, but it isn't a pussycat. Oh, and for shear fun it'll spoil you for most other power planes!

As he is not intending to solo the Husky and is mainly after skills that will transfer to gliding, he could sit in the back seat. There are plenty of controls there for his purpose.

Several years ago I went for a flight with a friend in his 180 Super Cub. I sat in the back. I couldn't see the instruments - or at least the airspeed.. I did half a dozen circuits like this. On the first two approaches my friend called the airspeed to me. On the rest he didn't bother .. I was already nailing the airspeed based on wind noise and control feel.

It freaked me out a bit though with the steep climb outs without being able to see airspeed. I was afraid I'd stall it, but he just kept saying "you can go much steeper than this .. you've got plenty of speed...".

Visibility of things *outside* wasn't a problem from the back. You're supposed to slip a bit on finals, right :-)

On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 10:43:14 PM UTC-6, bumper wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2015 at 11:58:18 AM UTC-7, wrote:

My options appear to be a Tomahawk or the like with a CFIG, or maybe an Aviat Husky taildragger with a CFI. I think landings with the CFIG sounds like good practice for me, the instructor will probably be able to help replicate glider landings like Cindy suggested.

Cheers,
J

I have an Aviat Husky and would recommend it over the Tomahawk - with reservations. The Husky is relatively complex compared to most training aircraft. Perhaps more importantly, the instructor, unless built like a spidermonkey, will not have a great view of the instrument panel or access to controls save for stick, rudder, throttle transmit button, and slapping the backside of your head. Everything else will be your baby; mixture, prop, mags, flaps, all radio gear, engine monitoring, etc. This can present quite a load to a beginning student pilot who's active brain cells will often be near saturation learning to start the engine and taxi safely. I've heard a few instructors make unfavorable remarks re. the Husky's suitability as a primary trainer due to this.

I will say that if you learn to fly the Husky with finesse, you should be able to step into most any single engine with a minimum of fuss. Not because the Husky is all that difficult, it's an honest plane, but it isn't a pussycat. Oh, and for shear fun it'll spoil you for most other power planes!

The Husky should be fine to get some time in. It will be tandem seating and a stick like the glider. A Good CFI will be able to minimize the amount of extra work you have to do in the front seat. You will have to start the engine, but if you are not at a busy airport you should not be having to be changing radio frequency's, The CFI can minimize the Prop control changes needed. I wouldn't recommend flying from the back as you will get a better sight picture and reference to the instruments from the front seat. The CFI should be fine flying from the back seat. He might want to you fly the 1st flight from the back seat just to see how you handle it, but after that I would expect you to fly from the front.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

If you want powered training because you simply want to get extended flight time in, then go with Condor plus pedals. Go to glidercfi.com and follow some of the lessons. Fly the K-13 for a sort-of-similar experience to the 2-33. Try aerotow over and over and over, and once you nail it, you'll have little problem translating those skills to the real thing. Hit the 'Q' key when you get low to add 1,000 feet of altitude and extend the flight.

As long as you don't mistake nailing the sim flying for real life proficiency and view it as an adjunct to your CFI directed training, you should find that it speeds your progress in real life training for far less cost than powered training.

I bought Condor and started using it last night. It does help understand how much and when to use each of the controls, even though the feel of the controls vs. the real thing itself is quite different.

I'm not so much trying to save cost, as much as minimize the time needed to get to the solo point, and hence reduce the wait time for training at the club, but I think the Condor is vastly better than FSX, and does appear to be helpful in that regard. I'm expecting the powered flight to be useful as well.

Again, thanks for all the useful advice.

On Friday, September 18, 2015 at 10:44:52 AM UTC-4, wrote:
I bought Condor and started using it last night. It does help understand how much and when to use each of the controls, even though the feel of the controls vs. the real thing itself is quite different.

I'm not so much trying to save cost, as much as minimize the time needed to get to the solo point, and hence reduce the wait time for training at the club, but I think the Condor is vastly better than FSX, and does appear to be helpful in that regard. I'm expecting the powered flight to be useful as well.

Again, thanks for all the useful advice.

Highly recommend going through a couple of the guides that the guys from Caesar Creek published: http://soar-ccsc.com/?page_id=915

While I agree the tactile feel isn't ideal, you can tweak the settings to reduce some of the sensitivity from the input devices (see the setup guide). More importantly, the ability to pause in mid-flight (e.g. turning base to final) and review your "plan" is a great benefit.

Right now, I'm working on crosswinds (takeoffs and landings) with my son. I can dial up a decent wind (10 kts) and we discuss the three phases of a takeoff (for example).
Me: Remind me again - what's going to happen when you are both on the ground?
Son: I'm going to focus on wings level and keeping the upwind wing slightly low while steering with rudder.
(I then hit "go" and he fights the weathervaning and some minor PIO tendency)
We pause after he gets in the air to take a look at where he is and what happens in the next few seconds (glider in the air, towplane still on the runway).
Etc.

I've found that the discussion in the real cockpit is much more effective since he's already seen the theory in practice and has absorbed some of the key visual cues (like keeping wings level, matching towplane bank angle, etc.)

Obviously, this is nothing new to the airlines and large commercial flight schools, but it's definitely a newer concept to the gliding ranks.

P3