JS1 Registration in the USA

Many thanks. This is very good news.


Unfortunately, it's not as good as you might hope. Though the US does have AW reciprocity with South America, there are still a lot of other regulatory hoops to jump through.

My suggestion would be to buy the glider through an agent in the European country where you intend to fly, and let them deal with the paperwork.

Thanks, Bob K.

As far as FAA acceptance of foreign Airworthiness Certification, I can offer a bit of personal experience. When we were trying to find a solution to the Pegase 3,000 hour life-limit AD imposed by the FAA, we brought up the fact that it is certificated by EASA in Europe and also the DGAC in France, both of which are covered by the "Bilateral Aviation Safety Agreements" included in the FAA's "Mission Statement:"

(http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert..._basa_listing/)

The AD's author quite explicitly stated, "We don't pay much attention to things like that." He has no idea how close he came.....

perjantai 7. lokakuuta 2016 0.18.13 UTC+3 kirjoitti:

My suggestion would be to buy the glider through an agent in the European country where you intend to fly, and let them deal with the paperwork.

Thanks, Bob K.

JS1 can be registered to EU? According to JS webpage: "Jonker Sailplanes is currently working with the SACAA to progress towards EASA Type Validation (a validation of the SACAA Type Certification, so avoiding unnecessarily duplication of the certification ground and flight testing). With EASA Type Validation it is expected that all signatories to the EASA-FAA bilateral will accept the Type Certification, including the USA and Australia."

Now this text has been there, unaltered, for at least 5 years now.

The EU agent/partner, M&D, announces that on their behalf everything is ready for cert. at the end of 2015, a year ago.

This has to be one of the longest certification processes in aviation history.

On Thursday, October 6, 2016 at 11:18:13 PM UTC+2, wrote:
Many thanks. This is very good news.


Unfortunately, it's not as good as you might hope. Though the US does have AW reciprocity with South America, there are still a lot of other regulatory hoops to jump through.

My suggestion would be to buy the glider through an agent in the European country where you intend to fly, and let them deal with the paperwork.

Thanks, Bob K.

Thanks for the advice, Bob, but I am not ready to take a 200,000 USD leap of faith.

I do appreciate your comments on "hoops." It's never as simple as it seems even when it's in black and white.

The problem in Europe is you simply cannot register an aircraft that is not type certified by EASA and for some reason -- perhaps political, perhaps technical -- this is taking a long time.

There are JS1s flying in Europe under South African colors and this is perfectly legal under ICAO rules. It does entail some other issues like ownership and licensing of the crew.

There are also so called JS1 M&D Singles flying in Europe under a German Permit to Fly pending EASA certification. The JS1 M&D Single is a JS1. They have just changed the name for certification purposes and this has knock on effects.

The first is that no JS1 will likely ever be retroactively certified in Europe. I can imagine what current owners think about that. The second is the JS1 M&D does not have a SACAA TC. So, you can buy one and fly it legally in any of the 191 signatory states of the Chicago Treaty but you will never be able to register it in Europe. Or you can by the other and hope EASA will certify it before delivery.

The reason for my initial query is to find a way around the regulations, have my cake and eat it too. I am a US citizen, so I can register a glider under N-. I've now eliminated the ownership issues. I don't have to set up a partnership with a South African entity. Unfortunately, I need a Standard CoA to benefit from the provisions of the ICAO treaty on overflight. Signatory countries can and usually do require that pilots aircraft with special CoAs get special permission to overfly their territory.

Agreed! It's the long way around and in the end the simplest thing to do is just wait for certification and enjoy my ASW-27 to the fullest in the mean time.

I thought I'd give you all the details since you were very helpful in providing the link to the US-SA bilateral.

Regards,

Rian

On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 5:00:54 AM UTC+2, wrote:
As far as FAA acceptance of foreign Airworthiness Certification, I can offer a bit of personal experience. When we were trying to find a solution to the Pegase 3,000 hour life-limit AD imposed by the FAA, we brought up the fact that it is certificated by EASA in Europe and also the DGAC in France, both of which are covered by the "Bilateral Aviation Safety Agreements" included in the FAA's "Mission Statement:"

(http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert..._basa_listing/)

The AD's author quite explicitly stated, "We don't pay much attention to things like that." He has no idea how close he came.....

Your message was cut off. I'd be interested in hearing the rest.

Rian-

The message wasn't cut off. I just chose to not state what the AD author came close to. Hint: It involved violence.

Ah, I see now.

My next suggestion would be to just buy an ASG-29 and be done with it. Unless you are one of the best pilots, the difference between its performance and the performance of all but the longest-winged JS-1s will be unnoticeable.

Thanks, Bob K.

"This has to be one of the longest certification processes in aviation history."

Nah, they're just slow to update their website.

Due to political issues, EASA was rather reluctant to permit certification of a foreign manufacturers sailplane that was going head to head with 'their own'. So the solution was for a European firm to apply so they couldn't say no. The CS22 testing had to be repeated

Fast forward to present day and JS produces the parts and M&D assembles them. Only those gliders produced in this way can be certified. There'll be no backdating / retrospective certification.

CJ

On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 6:53:19 PM UTC+2, wrote:
"This has to be one of the longest certification processes in aviation history."

Nah, they're just slow to update their website.

Due to political issues, EASA was rather reluctant to permit certification of a foreign manufacturers sailplane that was going head to head with 'their own'. So the solution was for a European firm to apply so they couldn't say no. The CS22 testing had to be repeated

Fast forward to present day and JS produces the parts and M&D assembles them. Only those gliders produced in this way can be certified. There'll be no backdating / retrospective certification.

CJ

Yeah... this sounds like a plausible version of the events surrounding JS's certification efforts.

Even the Jonkers point to a political issue:

Cf. http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/art...ion-2015-07-24

On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 5:34:37 PM UTC+2, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
Ah, I see now.

My next suggestion would be to just buy an ASG-29 and be done with it. Unless you are one of the best pilots, the difference between its performance and the performance of all but the longest-winged JS-1s will be unnoticeable.

Thanks, Bob K.

Agreed but I want the long wings. I have an ASG-29-15 right now.