I Will Never Understand Wind

"David Dyer-Bennet" wrote in message
...
"Jay Honeck" writes:

But just like turning the stove from low heat to full
power, the fact that more energy is being added to the system is easy to
say with certainty (even though in the case of the whole planet it's
undoubtedly difficult to say exactly how much due to the number of
variables).

Therein lies the rub, eh?

It's those pesky variables (like a single volcano releasing the
equivalent
of 400 years of man-made air pollution) that throw the whole "science" of
"global warming" into the realm of mere speculation.

Even worse, it's speculation driven by transparently political motives --
at
least here in the U.S.

Whereas I see it's *denial* as being driven by transparent motives.

Exactly.

Mike
MU-2

Tom Fleischman wrote:

I'll give up now. You've obviously been hopelessly convinced by the
fascist, corporatist, propaganda you're being fed by the flat earth
society media whores.

As opposed to the people you listen to who owe their entire livelihood to the
ability to convince others that global warming is a problem and we had better
support their research into it or their organization who is working to "fix" it.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

"W P Dixon" wrote in message ...
Interesting dilemma!
Some say nothing is happening to the earth, some say the earth is doomed
if we keep it up.

And the earth is doomed if we don't keep it up... The sun will not last
forever --only another 5 billion years or so... Since I don't have anything
all that pressing that I need to do in the meantime that would cause me to
be elsewhere, that kind of concerns me... grin

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...

"David Dyer-Bennet" wrote in message
...
"Jay Honeck" writes:

But just like turning the stove from low heat to full
power, the fact that more energy is being added to the system is easy
to
say with certainty (even though in the case of the whole planet it's
undoubtedly difficult to say exactly how much due to the number of
variables).

Therein lies the rub, eh?

It's those pesky variables (like a single volcano releasing the
equivalent
of 400 years of man-made air pollution) that throw the whole "science"
of
"global warming" into the realm of mere speculation.

Even worse, it's speculation driven by transparently political
motives --
at
least here in the U.S.

Like the EPA?


Whereas I see it's *denial* as being driven by transparent motives.

Exactly.

Also?

"R.L." wrote in message
m...
Peace, love, dope, -- incense, hashpipes and hare krishna! Oh, AND
Earthshoes, too.




"Tom Fleischman" k wrote
in
message

The difference is, my position supports my own best interests, like
seeing my great-grand-children have a planet they can inhabit. My main
worry these day is wondering if we as a species will survive long
enough for me to see my great-grand-children.

I'll give up now. You've obviously been hopelessly convinced by the
fascist, corporatist, propaganda you're being fed by the flat earth
society media whores.

Speaking of fascists:

Misc. Quotes from the Environmentalist Leadership

In their own words.... yikes!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

"We have wished, we ecofreaks, for a disaster or for a social change to

come and bomb us into Stone Age, where we might live like Indians in our

valley, with our localism, our appropriate technology, our gardens, our

homemade religion -- guilt-free at last!"

- Stewart Brand (writing in the Whole Earth Catalogue)

"We must ... reclaim the roads and the plowed land, halt dam construction,

tear down existing dams, free shackled rivers, and return to wilderness

millions and tens of millions of [acres of] presently settled land."

- David Foreman, Founder of Earth First! (taken from his book

Ecodefense: A Field Guide to Monkey Wrenching)

"We must make this an insecure and uninhabitable place for capitalists and

their projects. This is the best contribution we can make towards

protecting the earth and struggling for a liberating society."

- Ecotage, an offshoot of Earth First!

"To feed a starving child is to exacerbate the world population problem."

- Lamont Cole (as quoted by Elizabeth Whelan in her book Toxic Terror)

"This is as good a way to get rid of them as any."

- Charles Wursta, Chief Scientist for the Environmental Defense Fund,

in response to the banning of DDT (as quoted in Toxic Terror by

Elisabeth Whelan) ("Them" refers to "all those little brown people

in poor countries.")

"I got the impression that instead of going out to shoot birds, I should go

out and shoot the kids who shoot birds."

- Paul Watson, founder of Greenpeace (quoted in Access to Energy, Vol.

10, No. 4, Dec 1982)

"The planet is about to break out with fever, indeed it may already have,

and we [human beings] are the disease. We should be at war with ourselves

and our lifestyles."

- Thomas Lovejoy, tropical biologist and assistant secretary to

the Smithsonian Institution (quoted by David Brooks in The Wall

Street Journal article, "Journalists and Others for Saving the

Planet, 1989)

"Now, in a widening sphere of decisions, the costs of error are so

exorbitant that we need to act on theory alone, which is to say on

prediction alone. It follows that the reputation of scientific prediction

needs to be enhanced. But that can happen, paradoxically, only if

scientists disavow the certainty and precision that they normally insist

on. Above all, we need to learn to act decisively to forestall predicted

perils, even while knowing that they may never materialize. We must take

action, in a manner of speaking, to preserve our ignorance. There are

perils that we can be certain of avoiding only at the cost of never

knowing with certainty that they were real."

- Jonathan Schell (in his book, Our Fragile Earth)

"A global climate treaty must be implemented even if there is no scientific

evidence to back up the greenhouse effect."

- Richard Benedick, an employee from the State Department working

on assignment for the Conservation Foundation (from his report

Who Needs Evidence?)

"[W]e have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic
statements,

and make little mention of any doubts we may have. Each of us has to decide

what the right balance is between being effective and being honest."

- Stephen Schneider (quoted in Our Fragile Earth by Jonathan Schell)

"Let's face it. We don't want safe nuclear power plants. We want NO

nuclear power plants."

- A spokesman for the Government Accountability Project, an

offshoot of the Institute for Policy Studies (reported in

The American Spectator, Vol 18, No. 11, Nov. 1985)

"Scientists who work for nuclear power or nuclear energy have sold their

soul to the devil. They are either dumb, stupid, or highly compromised....

Free enterprise really means rich people get richer. And they have the

freedom to exploit and psychologically rape their fellow human beings in

the process.... Capitalism is destroying the earth. Cuba is a wonderful

country. What Castro's done is superb."

- Helen Caldicott, Australian pediatrician, speaking for the Union

of Concerned Scientists (as quoted by Elizabeth Whelan in her

book Toxic Terror)

"We've already had too much economic growth in the United States. Economic

growth in rich countries like ours is the disease, not the cure."

- Paul Ehrlich, Stanford University biologist

Paul Ehrlich deserves special attention, because his views sum up the

anti-human trends of political-environmentalist thought -- trends that

frequently manifest themselves in predictions of global famine or plans for

draconian measures to halt or reverse population growth. In "The

Population Bomb", Ehrlich predicted that the "battle to feed humanity is

over. In the 1970s, the world will undergo famines. Hundreds of millions

of people are going to starve to death in spite of any crash programs

embarked upon now. Population control is the only answer."

Of course, that inevitable mass starvation didn't happen unless you were

unlucky enough to have it imposed upon you by a Communist government in

Ethiopia. But Ehrlich has persisted in his predictions. He predicted

global famine in 1985 and was wrong. Now he says that the population of

the United States will shrink from 250 million to about 22.5 million before

1999, because of famine and global warming.

He still recommends reducing population by force, saying: "Several coercive

proposals deserve serious consideration, mainly because we will ultimately

have to resort to them, unless current trends in birth rates are revised."

Among Ehrlich's "coercive proposals" for the United States are

deindustrialization, liberalized abortion, and tax breaks for people who

have themselves sterilized. Ehrlich has many supporters in the

environmental movement.

"The right to have children should be a marketable commodity, bought and

traded by individuals but absolutely limited by the state."

- Kenneth Boulding, originator of the "Spaceship Earth" concept

(as quoted by William Tucker in Progress and Privilege, 1982)

"Childbearing [should be] a punishable crime against society, unless the

parents hold a government license.... All potential parents [should be]

required to use contraceptive chemicals, the government issuing antidotes

to citizens chosen for childbearing." - David Brower, Friends of the Earth

(as quoted by Rael Jean Isaac and Erich Isaac in The Coercive Utopians,

1985)

Lastly, when Prince Philip of the United Kingdom, leader of the World

Wildlife Fund, stated recently that, were he to be reincarnated, he would

wish to return as a "killer virus to lower human population levels."

-------------------------------------------

Fascists and sick mother****ers!!!

Tom fits right in.

"John Galban" wrote in message
oups.com...

Dylan Smith wrote:
snip
In any case, it's a problem that cannot be ignored. It's not just
that
burning fossil fuels is adding CO2 to the atmosphere, it's:

* fossil fuels are not infinite, and indeed although there may be
enough
to outlast everyone alive today, the *cheap* oil is rather more
limited. Our current lifestyles don't just depend on oil, they
depend
on oil that is very cheap.
* we are having to depend on hostile nations for energy supply
* the damage will not be reversable, at least not in our lifetimes.

I agree wholeheartedly with your first two points. The economic and
political ramifications of relying on cheap oil are not good for
anyone. Of course, the way most economies work, alternatives will not
be exploited until the oil becomes more expensive than the alternative.

What you describe is a "market economy", which is rather UNCOMMON. More
common is a COMMAND economy.

I can easily see a day when oil at $500/bbl will result in everyone
flying high-tech solar powered airplanes (*note aviation content!*) and
heating their homes with solar supplied hydrogen. When oil is no
longer economically feasable, something cheaper will take its place.

Probably longgggg before oil becomes $500/bbl.

"George Patterson" wrote in message
newsdUee.48$N_5.42@trndny09...
Tom Fleischman wrote:

I'll give up now. You've obviously been hopelessly convinced by the
fascist, corporatist, propaganda you're being fed by the flat earth
society media whores.

As opposed to the people you listen to who owe their entire livelihood to
the
ability to convince others that global warming is a problem and we had
better
support their research into it or their organization who is working to
"fix" it.


"[W]e have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic
statements, and make little mention of any doubts we may have. Each of us
has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being
honest." - Stephen Schneider (quoted in Our Fragile Earth by Jonathan
Schell)

I'm old enough to remember that in the 70s, "climatologists" were
certain that the earth was fast falling into another Ice Age. In the
U.S. the hysteria was such that they even held highly publicized
Congressional hearings on the topic.

Yes, those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. I remember this
"Ice Age" outcry well.

I also remember the many reputable "researchers" claiming that all the "oil
will be gone by the year 2000." (Actually, some were claiming 1990.)

My father, who worked in the gas & electric industry (as it was called
then -- none of this "energy industry" stuff), used to sit at the dinner
table and rant for 30 minutes about the ignorance and stupidity of these
assertions. He *knew* how much oil and gas was in the ground, and could see
right through the political agenda of these so-called "scientists."

Sadly, the media apparently could not.

At the time, as a young, liberal, earnest, "open-minded" Democrat, I thought
he was an idiot, and told him as much. We were doomed to a horrible future
because of the waste and largesse of his generation, and, dammit, we should
all be driving Pintos and building homes in the sides of hills!

Well, I'm sure he's chuckling right now.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Misc. Quotes from the Environmentalist Leadership

In their own words.... yikes!

Very scary stuff snipped

Crikey, Matt, that's some of the weirdest stuff I've seen from the Loony
Left.

It really makes you wonder how seemingly intelligent people like Tom can be
taken into their bizarre little world.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Grumman-581" wrote in message
news:fjUee.54089$r53.23998@attbi_s21...
"W P Dixon" wrote in message ...
Interesting dilemma!
Some say nothing is happening to the earth, some say the earth is doomed
if we keep it up.

And the earth is doomed if we don't keep it up... The sun will not last
forever --only another 5 billion years or so... Since I don't have
anything
all that pressing that I need to do in the meantime that would cause me to
be elsewhere, that kind of concerns me... grin

A big problem is failure to think in the long term :~)