F-102... German Origin

steve gallacci wrote in message ...
robert arndt wrote:

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/annex/an51.htm

... more "borrowed" German-tech courtesy of Dr. Alexander Lippisch.
From the Lippisch DM-1/P.13 we got the XF-92, F-102, F-106, and B-58.

Not directly, as the DM-1 was a rather flawed design.

It was a glider. The germans always built a glider first (usually a
wooden mockup) to verify their calculations in just about every
aircraft they built. The DM1 was crated and shipped to the USA and
tested in a windtunnel and by all accounts handelled very well. The
oversize verticle fin was removed and replaced by a bubble cannopy
with a smaller fin and this looks rather modern, to test that
configuration.

The Americans weren't so stupid as to reject a good idea because it
was "not invented here" although the Russians and Americans tried to
discredit each other for being dependant on German socientists for a
kick start in some areas. (Berier for instance asked that German
atomic reasearchers in particular publish under Russian pseudonyms)
and the US navy stopped development of heinkel He S11 jet engine
becuase of russian ribbing. This is quite a loss as the He S11 had
the diameter of an axial jet engine and the turbulent intake
tollerance of a radial compressor engine by virtue of its diagonal
compressor. The engines were thus slim enough to be burried in wings
and draw air in via very slim leading edge slits rather than round air
intakes.

The DM-1 was I believe a research aircraft and possibly pre
development aircraft for the Lippisch PM13a
http://www.luft46.com/lippisch/lip13a.html

The engine is interesting as was intended to be an inductor ramjet.
This had a rocket motor in the center of the ramjet that was fired at
zero speed both to provide thrust but mainly to induce an airflow so
that fuel could be burned in the main airflow till the ramjet became
self sustaining at about Mach 0.6

Because of the fuel shirtage the engine was supposed to be fired not
by keosene but by pulverised granulated coal fed from a basket. This
is not preposterous to anyone that has seen a jet of powdered coal or
seen how explosive coal dust could be. I suspect the rocket fuel
would have been heavy fuel oil obtained from the cokeing or pyrolisis
of coal and the oxidiser nitric acid both of which could be made with
minimum infrastructure and fire hypergolically.


The very basic
idea of a "delta" wing was his first, but it would not have been any
kind of stretch for others to do it, and the original work on the XF-92
(especially in its original form) owes very little to Lippisch.

Except all the inspiration, theory and supersonic wind tunnel testing
it was based on. What happens to the aerodynamic center of pressure
at Mach 1+ both above and below What happends to the momment?

When the USSR and USA start building ground effect aircraft that too
will be based on Alexanders Lippisch's work.

There was mass of german supersonic data. It went beyond just the
idea of a deltawing buit to well theorised and tested data.

It is called the spoils of war. Our race to Space with the USSR was also
from rocket scientist from Germany. Many of our early jet aircraft designs
came from Germany. Yes the US and England had working prototypes and even
Japan had a jet aircraft. But the US place more into amounts of aircraft to
put into the war, which helped us win.

Sound like there is still a bit of fight in the German people, wonder were
that was when the Soviets took over your country, or when we asked for your
assistance in IRAQ.
Could it be that all the oil your country was get from the oil for food
program, or the weapons that were being supplied by German companies to
Iraq.

Just my own views,

Bill Maddog Maddux
"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/annex/an51.htm

... more "borrowed" German-tech courtesy of Dr. Alexander Lippisch.
From the Lippisch DM-1/P.13 we got the XF-92, F-102, F-106, and B-58.

Rob

In article ,
Bill and Susan Maddux wrote:
It is called the spoils of war. Our race to Space with the USSR was also
from rocket scientist from Germany. Many of our early jet aircraft designs
came from Germany. Yes the US and England had working prototypes and even

More than prototypes. Both the UK and the US had jet fighters in service:
RAF had the Gloster Meteor F1 in 1944 and the Meteor F3 early in 1945,
US had the Lockheed F80 before the end of war in Europe. These are
only the aircraft which actually saw theatre service (and of these the
F3 Meteor and F80 were better all-round than any of the German designs
to see service - mainly because their engines were vastly superior).
Other designs - notably the De Havilland Vampire - were already ramping up
into production, but didn't make it to front-line squadrons before the
end of the war.

Worth remembering that the Meteor flew *before* any of the German jet
fighters did, too.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

Thank you, I am a little rusty of the beginnings of jet aviation. I remember
a show on the history channel that talked about German spies getting
information on the British jet engine designs or something like that.
"ANDREW ROBERT BREEN" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bill and Susan Maddux wrote:
It is called the spoils of war. Our race to Space with the USSR was also
from rocket scientist from Germany. Many of our early jet aircraft
designs
came from Germany. Yes the US and England had working prototypes and even

More than prototypes. Both the UK and the US had jet fighters in service:
RAF had the Gloster Meteor F1 in 1944 and the Meteor F3 early in 1945,
US had the Lockheed F80 before the end of war in Europe. These are
only the aircraft which actually saw theatre service (and of these the
F3 Meteor and F80 were better all-round than any of the German designs
to see service - mainly because their engines were vastly superior).
Other designs - notably the De Havilland Vampire - were already ramping up
into production, but didn't make it to front-line squadrons before the
end of the war.

Worth remembering that the Meteor flew *before* any of the German jet
fighters did, too.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

(ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote in message ...
In article ,
Bill and Susan Maddux wrote:
It is called the spoils of war. Our race to Space with the USSR was also
from rocket scientist from Germany. Many of our early jet aircraft designs
came from Germany. Yes the US and England had working prototypes and even

More than prototypes. Both the UK and the US had jet fighters in service:
RAF had the Gloster Meteor F1 in 1944 and the Meteor F3 early in 1945,
US had the Lockheed F80 before the end of war in Europe. These are
only the aircraft which actually saw theatre service (and of these the
F3 Meteor and F80 were better all-round than any of the German designs
to see service - mainly because their engines were vastly superior).

The engines were superior only becuase they were able to use nimonic
alloys that were essentially 80 nickel and 20 chromium for tubines,
turbine nozzles and combustion chambers and exhausts. Becuase of
sever supply problems the Germans had to use alloys that were about
14% Chromium, 14% nickel balance steel and then even then replaced the
nickel with manganese and lowered the chromium and that was only for
the turbine and turbine nozzles. Other hot parts were plain steel.
This only worked becuase they were forced to advance way ahead with
blade cooling. The combustion chambers and exhaust cones were
ordinary carbon steel with an aluminium oxide corrosion coating.

The Germans did use axial compressors to get a low engine diameter and
this required slighly tighter control since the optimum opperating
point, cavitation point were closer and drop of in efficiency was more
rapid and thus required variable area exhaust nozzle but it meant
that their engines had less drag and could be installed under a wing.
The meteor had enormous difficulties in integrating its wing/engine
combination.

However an early meteors engines could be destroyed by poor throttle
handling just like a jumo 004B on a Me 262. The problem was that when
the engine accelerated the dilution of air/fuel was not controlled
tightly enough and temperatures could go high enough to blown a tubine
or combustion chamber. The jumo 004B suffered form this but the
BMW003 had a fuel by pass system that opperated using an aneroid
capsule across the compressor that used and could be thrown around
much more.

When they moved from axial impulse type compresors to axial reaction
types, as they were doing, they left the radial compressor engines
behined in efficiency.

By the time the Jumo 004D and BMW003E2 had entered production many of
the control problems had been solved, too late, however and only a few
protoype eingines were tested aprt from some use on He 163 Salamander.

The late model jumo 004D, He S11, BMW003 engines slated for production
by the Germans in mid 1945 had duplex injectors so that they could
handle flight to 55,000 feet where thin air makes proper vaproisation
and soing of fuel difficult on a siongle injector, they had effectve
throttle limiting to bypass excess fuel as engines spooled up to
prevent temperature over runs blkowing tubines and chanbers and they
had automtic systems that adjuted nozzle area to get get the
appropriate turbine temperature and backpressure.



Other designs - notably the De Havilland Vampire - were already ramping up
into production, but didn't make it to front-line squadrons before the
end of the war.


A jumo 004C equiped Me 262 could manage 578mph and a jumo 004D even
more.

It would have been quite a race.

The Germans would have jumped ahead sometime in 1946 if hostilities
had of still been going with the introduction of swept wing aircraft
like the Focke Wulf Ta 183 or Messerschmit p1011 depite their
powerplant metalurgy logistics problems.

It would not have been a big advange as I suspect as supersonic was
still borderline and as using a very thin wing gets you quite far, and
there was an vague academic awareness (but no enthusiasm and no solid
wind tunnel work) developing of swept wing technology by 1944 in the
US.


Worth remembering that the Meteor flew *before* any of the German jet
fighters did, too.

I doubt this as Me 262s were in the air in 1942, however the Meteors
development was very protracted because of airframe/engine integration
problems created by the huge diameter of the radial compressor
engines. As the radial engines became more powerfull they found their
niche in single engine aircraft like the P80/F80 and vampire where
their ungainly diameter was not a problem and their abillity to cope
with turbulent flows was an advantage.

"Eunometic" wrote in message
om...
(ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bill and Susan Maddux wrote:
It is called the spoils of war. Our race to Space with the USSR was
also
from rocket scientist from Germany. Many of our early jet aircraft
designs
came from Germany. Yes the US and England had working prototypes and
even

big snip

Worth remembering that the Meteor flew *before* any of the German jet
fighters did, too.

I doubt this as Me 262s were in the air in 1942, however the Meteors

It seems you are wise to be sceptical

http://www.vectorsite.net/avmeteor.html

The first Meteor to actually fly took to the air on 5 March 1943, with
Michael Daunt
at the controls. It was the fifth in the prototype manufacturing sequence
and was fitted
with de Havilland Halford H.1 turbojets, the ancestor of the Goblin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262

It was the third airframe that was to become a true jet plane when it took
to the air on July 18, 1942 in Leipheim

John

"Bill and Susan Maddux" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
. ..
It is called the spoils of war. Our race to Space with the USSR was also
snip

Sound like there is still a bit of fight in the German people, wonder were
that was when the Soviets took over your country, or when we asked for
your
assistance in IRAQ.
Could it be that all the oil your country was get from the oil for food
program, or the weapons that were being supplied by German companies to
Iraq.


Do you think germany needed the Oil (or the money), its just business like
nearly all countries do!
Or will You say that the USA has problems to sell to China, Pakistan or
Saudi Arabia.

Germany (oficialy) didnt want to assist USA (and the coalition), because
they don't believe Mr Powell proofs in the WMD myth.
I personaly (living in one of the coalitian countries) was against the war,
because of the side effects.


my point of view.
andi

In article ,
"andi" wrote:

Germany (oficialy) didnt want to assist USA (and the coalition),
because they don't believe Mr Powell proofs in the WMD myth.

But unofficially, the big motivation was money. A much, much more
powerful motivator than any resistance about WMDs.

I personaly (living in one of the coalitian countries) was against
the war, because of the side effects.

You were upset about removing a horrible dicatator?

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

"Chad Irby" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news
In article ,
"andi" wrote:

Germany (oficialy) didnt want to assist USA (and the coalition),
because they don't believe Mr Powell proofs in the WMD myth.

But unofficially, the big motivation was money. A much, much more
powerful motivator than any resistance about WMDs.

That i doubt, the motivation were to became chancelor, and Schroeder won.



I personaly (living in one of the coalitian countries) was against
the war, because of the side effects.

You were upset about removing a horrible dicatator?

No, i am upset that how many were killed, twice, as ten years ago the us was
there too.

andi