Flying under Class B

So long as they are not directing you to do something unsafe, or hard on
the
equipment or passengers, or otherwise an extreme hassle - why not just
go
along?


For what purpose?


Safety! What does he know that you do not?



Lets say he is not a sharp troop. Why make his job harder.


But it doesn't make his job harder.


Every extra statement he makes takes time. Also, you may now be too close
to another flight path, making him divert it. What are you thinking? How
about the added stress from your denial adding to the rest of his stress. I
find it strange that you really don't care about being nice to controllers.



While you are
giving the guy fits, someone else is trying to get a clearance or
advice.


It's not me that's giving him fits, it's his misunderstang of procedures
that's giving him fits.


No, its you. You are at fault. You are being hard headed and stubborn for
no reason. You don't know what he is up against. You don't even know what
you are up against. You don't have to move out of the way to let a drunk
stumble by you in a crowded bar either, but its your dry cleaning bill.



Keep it up, and they will just expand the class B, because they NEED to
control that space.


Why do they NEED to control it?


Because they are control freaks, and have ever expanding volumes of traffic.
This is how government agencies work. They want control, they need
control, they demand control, and then AOPA has to fight them to keep them
from grabbing it.

The only reason the Class B area around you is not bigger, is that they
cannot show they need it. Otherwise, they would expand it. Every time a
flight has to get vectored to avoid VFR traffic, is another straw on the
proverbial camel's back.




If we go along, we can delay or eliminate the need to expand class B
areas.


That's got nothing to do with it.


See above, it has everything to do with it. Why do you think we have Class B
areas to start with? ATC wants your airspace, don't give them an excuse to
take it!

That was in the letter I wrote to complain. The (written) response
was "you have to follow all instructions the controller gives you".

To which you should have returned: "What regulation states that a VFR
aircraft in class E (which I presume you were in) airspace is required
to follow all instructions given by the controller?

Well, I look at it this way. I may have been stupid enough to have
gotten into a ****ing contest with the FAA in the first place, but at
least I was smart enough to quit while I still had some dry clothes
on.

Wise decision, Grasshoppa.

"Peter R." wrote in message
...

Shoulda had the supervisor tell you what section of the Federal Aviation
Regulation supports his assertion that ATC control VFR aircraft outside
of B or C airspace.


He might respond with FAR 91.123(b), which states; "Except in an emergency,
no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC
instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised." Well,
the VFR aircraft is in Class E airspace, and Class E airspace is
obviously an area in which air traffic control is exercised, so if the
controller instructs the pilot to maintain a specific altitude then absent
an emergency the pilot must maintain that specified altitude, right?

Wrong.

That line of reasoning would treat all ATC instructions equally. Let's take
a rather extreme example to illustrate. Let's say you're on short final in
Class D airspace when the tower instructs you to "roll inverted and pull".
Must you adhere to that instruction? Are you required by regulation to bury
yourself and your aircraft in the dirt? Of course not. Clearly, then,
there are limits to the "control" exercised by ATC.

FAA Order 7110.65 places substantial limits on the authority of ATC in
various situations. Paragraph 2-1-1. ATC SERVICE states, in part:

"Provide air traffic control service in accordance with the procedures and
minima in this order except when:

a. A deviation is necessary to conform with ICAO Documents, National
Rules of the Air, or special agreements where the U.S. provides air traffic
control service in airspace outside the U.S. and its possessions or:

NOTE-
Pilots are required to abide by CFRs or other applicable regulations
regardless of the application of any procedure or minima in this order."

In short, ATC cannot require you to do something which would be a violation
of an FAR. That altitude assigned by our wayward controller could require
to violate cloud clearance requirements or minimum safe altitudes.

FAA Order 7110.65 does have provisions for the issuance of altitudes to VFR
aircraft, but only in Class B and Class C airspace, the Outer Area
associated with Class C airspace, and in TRSAs. That makes sense, because
ATC separates VFR aircraft in those areas. Clearly, if separation is
required the controller must have the necessary tools to provide it. But
outside of those areas ATC does not separate VFR aircraft and has no
authority to assign altitudes to them.

"Dude" wrote in message
...

So long as they are not directing you to do something unsafe, or hard
on the equipment or passengers, or otherwise an extreme hassle - why
not just go along?


For what purpose?


Safety!


A rather broad subject. Do you think you could expand on that a bit?



What does he know that you do not?


He knows where the other radar targets are.



Lets say he is not a sharp troop. Why make his job harder.


But it doesn't make his job harder.


Every extra statement he makes takes time.


The only "extra statement" here is the one where he directed a VFR aircraft
operating in Class E airspace to descend. He was wrong to make that
statement.



Also, you may now be too close to another flight path, making him
divert it. What are you thinking?


What are you thinking? How could my presence require him to divert another
aircraft? I'm operating VFR in Class E airspace, ATC does not provide
VFR/IFR or VFR/VFR separation in Class E airspace.



How about the added stress from your denial adding to the rest of
his stress. I find it strange that you really don't care about being nice
to controllers.


I'm very nice to controllers, and to pilots too. If the controller finds
the issuance of traffic advisories to be stressful he should find another
occupation.



While you are giving the guy fits, someone else is trying to get
a clearance or advice.


It's not me that's giving him fits, it's his misunderstang of procedures
that's giving him fits.


No, its you. You are at fault.


How so? What am I at fault for?



You are being hard headed and stubborn for no reason.


I don't think you understand the situation here. The service the controller
is providing in this case is radar traffic advosories. Nothing more. This
is not a separation issue.



You don't know what he is up against.


What is he up against?



You don't even know what you are up against.


What am I up against?



You don't have to move out of the way to let a drunk
stumble by you in a crowded bar either, but its your dry cleaning bill.


Right, no third party is involved. Just as responsibility for separation
rests with me and the other aircraft, not the controller.





Keep it up, and they will just expand the class B, because they NEED to
control that space.


Why do they NEED to control it?


Because they are control freaks, and have ever expanding volumes of
traffic. This is how government agencies work. They want control,
they need control, they demand control, and then AOPA has to fight
them to keep them from grabbing it.

The only reason the Class B area around you is not bigger, is that they
cannot show they need it. Otherwise, they would expand it. Every time a
flight has to get vectored to avoid VFR traffic, is another straw on the
proverbial camel's back.


But no flight NEEDS to be vectored to avoid VFR traffic in Class E airspace.



If we go along, we can delay or eliminate the need to expand class B
areas.


That's got nothing to do with it.


See above, it has everything to do with it. Why do you think we have
Class B areas to start with? ATC wants your airspace, don't give them
an excuse to take it!


We're not talking about Class B airspace, we're talking about Class E
airspace.

Andrew Gideon wrote:

But a quick request to TRACON got us not only entry, but a vector to Colts
Neck (which we couldn't receive at our current position/altitude).

As I said, they're very helpful.

That's different. The original poster was suggesting that you request traffic
advisories while under the class-B floor. In my experience, you won't get VFR traffic
advisories from NY ATC.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:
That's different. The original poster was suggesting that you request traffic
advisories while under the class-B floor. In my experience, you won't get VFR
traffic advisories from NY ATC.

Not in my experience. Sure, if it's busy they may not be able, but most
of the time advisories are no problem.

Roy Smith wrote:

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:
That's different. The original poster was suggesting that you request
traffic advisories while under the class-B floor. In my experience, you
won't get VFR traffic advisories from NY ATC.

Not in my experience. Sure, if it's busy they may not be able, but most
of the time advisories are no problem.

I've never tried to get advisories from TRACON while under the class B.
I've no idea what RADAR coverage they have there, in fact. If I'm going to
be talking to someone anyway, why not get clearance through?

Oh, well, this isn't quite true. Plenty of times I've contacted TRACON
while under the class B after departing CDW, but I've always requested
class B as well as advisories. On the rare case where I couldn't climb
immediately, I've still usually received the flight following.

There have been odd cases where I've not been able to get advisories outside
of the class B, but they've been few and - at least as far as I can recall
- all situations where the issue was workload. Usually, I'm told to call
back in a few minutes.

FWIW, I've also done the "Parkway Transition" at 1000, but this involves
talking to Newark Tower. They had me wait once, but have never said "no".

So my experience with NY TRACON has been that they're usually quite willing
to provide VFR advisories.

- Andrew

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...
Roy Smith wrote:

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:
That's different. The original poster was suggesting that you request
traffic advisories while under the class-B floor. In my experience, you
won't get VFR traffic advisories from NY ATC.

Not in my experience. Sure, if it's busy they may not be able, but most
of the time advisories are no problem.

I've never tried to get advisories from TRACON while under the class B.
I've no idea what RADAR coverage they have there, in fact. If I'm going
to
be talking to someone anyway, why not get clearance through?

If you fly along the LI shore past JFK, you might not get cleared into Class
B (which starts just above 500'), but you can usually get traffic advisories
underneath. Along the Hudson corridor, though, I think they want you in
Class B for advisories.

--Gary

Gary Drescher wrote:

st JFK, you might not get cleared into Class
B (which starts just above 500'), but you can usually get traffic
advisories underneath.

That's not really very convenient for me. Plus, I'd prefer to be higher.
Plus plus, over Manhatten would certainly add to the fun. That's why I'm
looking for a route through the class B. Hopefully, someone'll write that
something like TEB-LGA at 5500 is what they prefer, or some such. That
would work perfectly for me.

Along the Hudson corridor, though, I think they
want you in Class B for advisories.

I'm afraid I don't understand. When someone writes "the Hudson corridor",
he or she is usually referring to the "exclusion zone" in which people can
fly within - but not in - the class B. I have flown *over* the corridor
while speaking to ATC (LGA tower, mostly). Is that what you mean? I
didn't know that this was preferred by ATC.

[*I* like it because it permits a transit over Manhatten and then down the
East River. A nice alternative view to just the Hudson.]

- Andrew

In article ne.com,
Andrew Gideon wrote:

Gary Drescher wrote:

st JFK, you might not get cleared into Class
B (which starts just above 500'), but you can usually get traffic
advisories underneath.

That's not really very convenient for me. Plus, I'd prefer to be higher.
Plus plus, over Manhatten would certainly add to the fun. That's why I'm
looking for a route through the class B. Hopefully, someone'll write that
something like TEB-LGA at 5500 is what they prefer, or some such. That
would work perfectly for me.

If you're transiting the Class B east-west, NY Approach will often hand
you off to LGA Tower, and tower will bring you right over the top of the
airport at 1500. They'll tell you to fly directly over the runway
intersection. Heading west, LGA Tower will sometimes give you back to
NY Approach, or sometimes just hand you off directly to TEB Tower as you
cross the Hudson.

It seems strange the first time, but it actually makes a lot of sense.
Right over the top of the airport, all the traffic is at ground level,
safely below you. You get some good sight-seeing in too!

Along the Hudson corridor, though, I think they
want you in Class B for advisories.

I'm afraid I don't understand. When someone writes "the Hudson corridor",
he or she is usually referring to the "exclusion zone" in which people can
fly within - but not in - the class B. I have flown *over* the corridor
while speaking to ATC (LGA tower, mostly). Is that what you mean? I
didn't know that this was preferred by ATC.

I think what he meant was while they're often willing to give you a
Class B clearance at 1500 down (or up) the Hudson, if you call them up
at 1000 in the exclusion corridor and ask for flight following, you'll
almost certainly be turned down. My personal preference is 1500 with
the clearance; the view is just as good, and I like the idea of not
being down in the zoo of traffic at 1000. NY Approach will clear you
in, then hand you off to LGA Tower, who in turn will hand you off to EWR
Tower once you get to about midtown.

If you're looking for a scenic route, I've often had good luck getting
Class Bravo clearances up the East River. Once you get to the 59th
Street Bridge, you'll get your choice of a left turn over Central Park
and over to the Hudson, or a right turn over LGA (see above) and out to
Long Island Sound.