If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
"John Carrier" wrote in message ... While there will be those who fixate completely on large raids by large bombers, how about ... Taranto. Eliminated the Italian navy's influence in the Mediterranean theatre. Pearl Harbor. Flawed in many ways (didn't eliminate ship repair facilities or oil storage, nor did it catch the carriers in port AND didn't anticipate US population's reaction), but certainly accomplished Yamamoto's goal to allow him to "run wild" in the Pacific for 6-12 months (well, 5 months and 4 weeks actually). In terms of tactical execution (strike force performing as the script required), absolutely brilliant. Incendiary attacks on Japan. Switch from high altitude bombing to fire raids quickly decimated Japan's small manufacturing base and its ability to supply armaments factories with the subassemblies for its weapons of war. Israeli raid on Osirak nuclear facility. Linebacker 2. Brought North Vietnam back to the table to negotiate the alleged end of the Vietnam war. The difficulty in reviewing "great" strategic air missions is that what seemed like a good idea at the time turns out to be not so good, or too expensive or results in an unintended consequence (Pearl Harbor). While the need for the nuclear attacks upon Hiroshima and Nagasaki seemed overwhelming to the national command authority at the time, with the clear perspective of hindsight they contributed little to the defeat of Japan and certainly opened up Pandora's box for the postwar world. Actually I believe that if we hadn't used Atomic weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki then they would have been used at some point in past history most likely with far greater death and destruction. Hiroshima and Nagasaki taught the world how horrible atomic weapons are. Similarly, the urgency to strike the Norwegian heavy water facilities seemed an imperative, but there's little doubt that Germany's nuclear program was not (and could not be) supported adequately to produce a weapon in time for use. Not something known at the time of the attack A lot of ink is thrown at the 8th Air Force's campaign against Germany. Certainly valor was in overwhelming supply as the crews hurled themselves at a well-integrated defense in broad daylight with little escort (to start). OTOH, the strategy looks remarkably similar to that British Expeditionary force in the battle of the Somme, 1916: "Here we come, try and stop us." Fortunately, by late 1944, they couldn't. But it was an expensive effort. Yamamoto shootdown Brilliant tactical execution. Strategic consequences? After all, Yamamoto brought the Japanese the flawed Midway campaign (and overlooked some important strategic targets at Pearl Harbor). Would his leadership have had an impact on Philippine Sea or Leyte campaigns? See answer to Emmanuel Gustin post Hiroshima See above Paul Doumer bridge LGB That and the Thahn Hoa raids introduced precision weapons to the tactical air power game, but did either raid accomplish significant alterations in the strategic picture? How long were the bridges out of action compared to previous missions? Dambusters One of my favorites. Tirpitz Freed RN for other duty. But considering Tirpitz never did anything in her service life, kind of a non-event. Norwegian heavy water See above Midway In terms of fleet placement and combat orders, I'd have to agree. Tactical execution defined "luck" for the dive bombers (Luck = when preparation meets opportunity). When gamed by the Naval War College, the US loses Midway just about every time. I thought you said "Yamamoto brought the flawed Midway campaign?" ;-) Doolittle raid Amen! Any time you can influence the enemy to change his game plan in your favor, it's a good thing. |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
"BUFDRVR" wrote in message ... Leadfoot wrote: What are some of the greatest strategic air missions? Some candidates Yamamoto shootdown Hiroshima Paul Doumer bridge LGB Dambusters Tirpitz Norwegian heavy water Midway Doolittle raid How about the Korean War Dam busting campaign? Only real strategic air mission of the war, but it worked better than most believed. They don't call Korea "the forgotton war" for nothing do they? Thanks!!! Is there a good link on this? BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message ... On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:23:23 -0700, "Leadfoot" wrote: What are some of the greatest strategic air missions? Some candidates Yamamoto shootdown A tactical mission with strategic implications. Hiroshima Most assuredly strategic and resoundingly decisive. Changed the view of airpower and war forever. I have a theory that Hiroshima and Nagasaki actually prevented future nuclear attacks by being examples of how horrible nuclear weapons are and therefore saved many lives during the cold war. Paul Doumer bridge LGB The Doumer LGB mission in May of '72 was only one of a long series of Doumer Bridge missions dating back to Jan. '67. Immortalized in a great Keith Ferris painting! Clearly, in terms of "strategic" mission the North Vietnam war doesn't offer many good examples. One could suggest that the 29-30 June '66 Hanoi oil raids were strategic, with significant destruction of POL supplies and crippling of POL infrastructure. Arguably the introduction of technological advances rather than specific missions could be the strategic milestones. Anti-radiation missiles, Wild Weasels, airborne command/control systems, ECM self-protection, non-cooperative target ID, and precision guided munition introductions to name a few. Biggest strategic campaign, of course, would be Linebacker II. Doolittle raid Tactical mission, but politically strategic. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" "Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights" Both from Smithsonian Books ***www.thunderchief.org |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
But then you are talking about a strategic campaign,
not a mission. The campaign against the German transport network was probably the most significant and successful of all, followed by the campaign against the German oil industry. Emmanuel Gustin Or as Harris liked to call them, panaceas. |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
"John Mullen" wrote in message ... "Leadfoot" wrote in message news:KYBVc.118201$sh.114795@fed1read06... What are some of the greatest strategic air missions? Some candidates Yamamoto shootdown Hiroshima Paul Doumer bridge LGB Dambusters Tirpitz Norwegian heavy water Midway Doolittle raid You would surely have to include the 11th September attacks on New York and Washington. For an outlay of well under $1M, and some volunteers suicide attackers with box cutters, whoever executed it massively damaged the US economy, and so spooked the US that they started not one but two unwinnable wars (in Afghanistan and Iraq) in response. Surely that has to place it up there with Hiroshima? I think the Doolittle raid is a much closer parallel to 9-11 than Hiroshima John |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Some snipping ...
Actually I believe that if we hadn't used Atomic weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki then they would have been used at some point in past history most likely with far greater death and destruction. Hiroshima and Nagasaki taught the world how horrible atomic weapons are. A good point worthy of debate. It can be speculated that had the two weapons not been employed, a more grisly later scenario might have developed. Or, perhaps the cold war might have never progressed beyond a mild detente. At any rate, the brink was seriously approached in October 1962. (There were several folks in high places that would happily have gone to defcon 1.) Post WWII we launched ouselves into a nuclear-centric defense policy at the expense of conventional forces. There were high human costs associated with that decision. I wonder how many destroyed cities Stalin would have considered unacceptable? I know the answer for the United States: ZERO. So did we really need 2500 bombers to create a sufficient deterrent? Perhaps if we needed to assure ourselves the rubble would bounce ... many times over. Perhaps the world DID learn how horrible nuclear weapons are. OTOH, the US and Soviet Union deployed several 10's of thousands of the things. And a number of folks who hardly need them for their national security have deployed them or are working hard to develope/acquire them. Similarly, the urgency to strike the Norwegian heavy water facilities seemed an imperative, but there's little doubt that Germany's nuclear program was not (and could not be) supported adequately to produce a weapon in time for use. Not something known at the time of the attack "Seemed an imperative" is the operative phrase. Yes it was not known at the time. The tricky part of the original question is the definition of greatness. The war did not turn on this. Had Germany thrown all its resources at a nuclear weapons program, it might have been more significant (albeit heavy water was hardly a key ingredient to the Manhattan project). Paul Doumer bridge LGB That and the Thahn Hoa raids introduced precision weapons to the tactical air power game, but did either raid accomplish significant alterations in the strategic picture? How long were the bridges out of action compared to previous missions? Much longer for sure, but how important were they to the overall war strategy? Perhaps the best answer is, "What strategy?" The military leadership was never allowed to implement a meaningful winning strategy. Midway In terms of fleet placement and combat orders, I'd have to agree. Tactical execution defined "luck" for the dive bombers (Luck = when preparation meets opportunity). When gamed by the Naval War College, the US loses Midway just about every time. I thought you said "Yamamoto brought the flawed Midway campaign?" ;-) By subdividing his force into four separate entities, three of which were beyond his tactical control (because of radio silence requirements), he created a scenario which made it barely possible for a US success. Given that scenario, it still gamed in favor of the Japanese, but there was this seam in his plan which could be exploited ... A little less subtlety (AKA concentration of combat forces) plus elimination of the meaningless Alutian feint, and he would have truly been unstoppable. Oh yes, and don't give your (perhaps indecisive) CarGru commander conflicting orders: Attack Midway and OBTW draw out and kill the US fleet. The point is that while Yamamoto was regarded as the resident genius within the Japanese Navy, he made key mistakes in at least two campaigns. At Pearl Harbor, he was so fixated upon the US Fleet, he overlooked the value of the SRF and oil storage facilities. (Yet he readily admitted any success would be short lived as "the sleeping giant" awoke. Prioritizing Pearl's logistic capability vice its combat capability would have had more permanent impact vis a vis Japan's interests in securing its defensive perimeter around the Greater East Asia Coprosperity Sphere.) R / John |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Leadfoot wrote:
Is there a good link on this? Here's a brief one on the Air War in Korea: http://www.afa.org/magazine/july2003/0703korea.asp Another quick blurb about it he http://www.afa.org/magazine/june2000/0600korea.asp There's a whole chapter dedicated to the Dam campaign in "The United States Air Force in Korea" by Robert F. Futrell BUFDRVR "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips everyone on Bear Creek" |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message ... On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:23:23 -0700, "Leadfoot" wrote: Biggest strategic campaign, of course, would be Linebacker II. I'd suggest the oil campaign against Germany in WW2 was rather more significant. Keith |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Subject: Greatest Strategic Air Missions?
From: "Keith Willshaw" Date: 8/21/2004 2:01 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:23:23 -0700, "Leadfoot" wrote: Biggest strategic campaign, of course, would be Linebacker II. I'd suggest the oil campaign against Germany in WW2 was rather more significant. Keith Absolutely. But it was a two pronged effort combining strategic and tactical missions. The heavies hit targets like Ploesti we hit rhe oil storage farms and traffic moving out of refineries like truck convoys and oil storage around airfields and wherever we could find them. But many operations combind both stragoic and tactical in combination. To think of them as totally separate is to be thinking WW I. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
ubject: Greatest Strategic Air Missions?
From: "Keith Willshaw" Date: 8/21/2004 2:01 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:23:23 -0700, "Leadfoot" wrote: Biggest strategic campaign, of course, would be Linebacker II. I'd suggest the oil campaign against Germany in WW2 was rather more significant. Keith And let's never forget the massive and all encompassing transportation campaign all across Europe.. Besides, the success of any campaign is better validated in wars we won rather than wars we lost. Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Russian recon planes fly ten missions over Baltics | B2431 | Military Aviation | 4 | March 2nd 04 04:44 AM |
New Story on my Website | ArtKramr | Military Aviation | 42 | February 18th 04 05:01 AM |
OT (sorta): Bush Will Announce New Space Missions | Dav1936531 | Military Aviation | 0 | January 9th 04 10:34 AM |
French block airlift of British troops to Basra | Michael Petukhov | Military Aviation | 202 | October 24th 03 06:48 PM |
Strategic Command Missions Rely on Space | Otis Willie | Military Aviation | 0 | September 30th 03 09:59 PM |