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#21
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Spin training for US pilots?
On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 1:59:01 PM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 9:58:23 AM UTC-7, wrote: Yes, spins are permitted except in Landing Flap and appear in the Aircraft Flight Manual for the ASW-27, as do Loops, Lazy Eights, Chandelles and Stall Turns. I practice spins, spin entries and recovery pretty much every season and perform the other maneuvers regularly. I am at a loss to understand the idea presented earlier that spin practice adds as as much risk as benefit - a quick look at the NTSB accident summaries undercuts this idea. I know of no one who has been in a fatal spin training accident, while on the other hand... Hmmm, wonder why in the 27 but not the 26. What about the 29 and 31, anybody know? I, too, find the idea that spin training is as dangerous as accidental (untrained!) spins unbelievable. Is there any shred of data to back that supposition? The official view (not mine) is accidental spins are rare but mandating spin training would subject everyone to them making the overall risk comparable. There have been spin training accidents in the UK though not recently in the US as far as I know. http://rdd.me/a5prkekd I can't find a reference but I recall several papers showing those countries who mandated spin training actually had more spin accidents. In recent years, there have been few cases of fully developed spins continuing through thousands of feet of altitude all the way to impact. This is what people imagine but it's very rare. A far more common "spin accident" sees the aircraft completing less than one turn before impact. These are probably an incipient spin immediately transitioning to a spiral dive. In this case, the classic spin recovery technique taught at altitude is of little use and may even be dangerous. Far more useful is recognizing an impending spin departure and correcting it before it gets out of hand. |
#22
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Spin training for US pilots?
On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 1:59:01 PM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 9:58:23 AM UTC-7, wrote: Yes, spins are permitted except in Landing Flap and appear in the Aircraft Flight Manual for the ASW-27, as do Loops, Lazy Eights, Chandelles and Stall Turns. I practice spins, spin entries and recovery pretty much every season and perform the other maneuvers regularly. I am at a loss to understand the idea presented earlier that spin practice adds as as much risk as benefit - a quick look at the NTSB accident summaries undercuts this idea. I know of no one who has been in a fatal spin training accident, while on the other hand... Can not answer about the 31, the 29, normal recovery in all flap settings except the 'landing-flap' which is "Strictly Prohibited" flaps need to be reduced immediately. Water ballast has no noticeable influence except for increased speeds. There is a note,Spins can, based on CG and aileron position turn into spiral dive. I had extensive spin training in a 2-32 prior to solo and before my commercial check did 19 various rotation and heading recovering spins in one flight in a L-13 with an instructor who loved spinning. Aerobatics are not authorized in the 29.. Hmmm, wonder why in the 27 but not the 26. What about the 29 and 31, anybody know? I, too, find the idea that spin training is as dangerous as accidental (untrained!) spins unbelievable. Is there any shred of data to back that supposition? |
#23
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Spin training for US pilots?
Spin training in wave in a Blanik L-23 has got to be the most fun (and most productive hour of training) that I have ever had in a glider.
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#24
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Spin training for US pilots?
On Jun 4, 6:40*am, BobW wrote:
Personally, I find the mindsets I've encountered in fellow pilots (soaring and power) regarding spins: often worrisome; always interesting; almost universally lacking in fundamental understanding of the aerodynamic uncertainties inherent to "departures from controlled flight" (typically called "spin" for short). To make a sweeping general statement which has long colored my own approach to PIC-ing, if Joe Pilot doesn't truly believe "departure from controlled flight/spinning" is "uncontrolled flight" Joe Pilot is doing him or herself a serious disservice if living to fly another flight is personally important. |
#25
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Spin training for US pilots?
"Can some one point me at a single seat glider that won't spin?"
Rutan Solitaire? :-) Of course there are quite a few that are placarded against deliberate spins.. Always loved deliberately spinning the L-13's the club used to have. The L-23 isn't quite as much fun in a spin. Never managed to get a real spin out if the Twin Astir RG or Acro but the DG-505 does it nicely. We used to have an early Standard Jantar which would drop a wing and spin pretty steep and fast (by glider standards) with little warning. My ASW-15B really has to be provoked to enter a spin. Regardless of what the FAA found regarding the risk/benefit relationship of spin training in general aviation I would think that with gliders the fact that we spend so much time flying relatively close to stall speed would mean that spin training would have a higher benefit for us than light aeroplane pilots. Changes made in the training syllabus in Canada regarding spins since I started flying in 1998 are that there is much more emphasis on recognizing stall/spin warning signs and correctly responding to them. The actual full blooded spins are now done with a slow, shallow banked turn combined with too much bottom rudder as the entry. When I started flying we used to enter the spin from a straight ahead sharp stall combined with quick full rudder deflection. |
#26
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Spin training for US pilots?
On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 2:36:42 PM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
The official view (not mine) is accidental spins are rare but mandating spin training would subject everyone to them making the overall risk comparable. There have been spin training accidents in the UK though not recently in the US as far as I know. .... A far more common "spin accident" sees the aircraft completing less than one turn before impact. These are probably an incipient spin immediately transitioning to a spiral dive. In this case, the classic spin recovery technique taught at altitude is of little use and may even be dangerous. We should be clear to distinguish between gliders and GA more broadly. I would argue that gliders have a higher risk of accidental spins and lower risk associated with properly executed practice. Certainly it's not a good idea to practice spins at close to pattern altitude or in an aircraft with unpredictable spin characteristics, without a parachute, without proper instruction, etc. It should go without saying that if you are going to practice spins you will benefit more from practicing the kinds of entries that are likely to catch you by surprise (low bank angle, over-ruddered turns). I disagree with the idea that being familiar with how a glider behaves in a spin entry at a safe altitude is somehow worse for a pilot than having to figure it out for the first time at 300'. If you can find the official study, I'd love to see it. I'm wondering whether they simply assume that most CFIs are simply not competent enough pilots to be trusted not to do really dumb things should spin training be mandated or that a single fatality from mandated spin training is worse from a liability perspective than many more from accidental stall/spins. Mandated or not I think it's a good idea to get familiar with what happens to your glider under the circumstances that kill more glider pilots than any other phase of flight. 9B |
#27
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Spin training for US pilots?
Having learned to fly in the "good ol days" when power pilots actually
had to demonstrate a full stall as opposed to recognizing an eminent stall, I am biased on this topic. I have been flying aerobatics for most of my life and have taken dozens of fellow pilots up for some adventure. When my fellow pilots take control and attempt a full stall or spin, the vast majority freeze up mentally and/or physically upon entering the maneuver. They are not used to the feelings, the control feel, the sight picture, and the sounds, or lack there of. It is my opinion that this is a major factor in most of our "falling out of the sky" accidents. I agree that because we fly so close to the bottom end of the flight envelop we should be experts at recognizing and taking control of "departures from controlled flight." It also takes regular practice. At the least, I vote for our biennual fight reviews to include entering and recovering from full stalls and full spins (providing the aircraft is appropriate for this activity). Guy Acheson "DDS" |
#28
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Spin training for US pilots?
On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 9:51:31 AM UTC-6, Martin Eiler wrote:
Recently we saw a pilot upgrade in performance to an ASW20. In spite of at least 3 instructors telling him he needed to get spin training before flying that glider. The new owner has chosen to ignore their recommendations. Actually, If a pilot were to blow off spin training, A 20 is a good ship to own because it does not spin readily. More likely (Depending on the CG) it will enter into a steep spiral. The thing we need to remember is that it is not necessarily spins that cause accidents, It is the lack of recognition that does. This was addressed in the video that Sean posted. The goal of training should be to recognize and avoid spins in the first place and not just on spin recovery. |
#29
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Spin training for US pilots?
On Sunday, June 2, 2013 4:11:56 PM UTC-6, Ralph Jones wrote:
Even more amazing: It is possible to become an airline captain without ever having had an airplane upside down... What does having an airplane upside down have to do with airline captains? I think you are confusing machizmo with relevance. A more appropriate statement would be "By the time a pilot becomes a Captain he/she has had plenty of upset and unusual attitude recovery training." |
#30
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Spin training for US pilots?
On Wednesday, June 5, 2013 4:30:34 AM UTC-4, wrote:
"Can some one point me at a single seat glider that won't spin?" Rutan Solitaire? :-) Of course there are quite a few that are placarded against deliberate spins. Always loved deliberately spinning the L-13's the club used to have. The L-23 isn't quite as much fun in a spin. Never managed to get a real spin out if the Twin Astir RG or Acro but the DG-505 does it nicely. We used to have an early Standard Jantar which would drop a wing and spin pretty steep and fast (by glider standards) with little warning. My ASW-15B really has to be provoked to enter a spin. Regardless of what the FAA found regarding the risk/benefit relationship of spin training in general aviation I would think that with gliders the fact that we spend so much time flying relatively close to stall speed would mean that spin training would have a higher benefit for us than light aeroplane pilots. Changes made in the training syllabus in Canada regarding spins since I started flying in 1998 are that there is much more emphasis on recognizing stall/spin warning signs and correctly responding to them. The actual full blooded spins are now done with a slow, shallow banked turn combined with too much bottom rudder as the entry. When I started flying we used to enter the spin from a straight ahead sharp stall combined with quick full rudder deflection. I used to enjoy spins in the L-13, too. We require spin training for all our students, but we put it as a post-solo lesson. Pre-solo we cover stalls, stall awareness, and slow flight (incipient stall) once the student has mastered basic control of the aircraft. I'll disagree about Grobs spinning. They don't stay in the spin very long, but they depart in a most impressive manner if you enter properly. The entry is the exact setup that catches people by surprise -- slow speed, shallow turn, bottom rudder, and then react "instinctively" with aileron instead of rudder. The wing drops very quickly and one finds oneself looking up at the ground. This only lasts about half a turn before becoming a spiral dive, but it happens even with forward cg. It's good to see this in a Grob because the Grob has a reputation as being hard to stall or spin. It also leads into a discussion that other planes the pilot will fly can depart more quickly and stay in longer, and teaches them to be vigilant because even in a "benign" plane the entry can be a killer. Matt |
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