Garmin 530 Fatal Error

Wyatt,

Calling them all "idiots" does nothing to address a very real
problem.

Yes, it does. Ask him how many make mistakes with VORs.

This is sloppy TSO regulations and lazy programming on the part of
the FAA and Garmin.

No, it's not. This is like asking "why doesn't "the box" keep the plane flying
when the engine fails?". "The box" doesn't claim to do what you want it to do.
So why are you expecting it to?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Wyatt Emmerich wrote:

I guess I'm in the minority, but I still think I'm right. The box ought to
do the job and not leave the pilot hanging. It should not draw a magenta
line straight into terrain or a tower, regardless of when the pilot decides
to hit the blinking SUSP button.

The box does do the job for which it is designed. That is, to continue an
extension of the final approach course until you take the necessary action to
fly the missed approach procedure. What does a VOR do when you reach the MAP?
It continues to fly the extension of the final approach course until you take
necessary action to fly the missed approach track.



The instructor said every one of some eight pilots made the exact same
error. Calling them all "idiots" does nothing to address a very real
problem. This is sloppy TSO regulations and lazy programming on the part of
the FAA and Garmin.

"Peter Clark" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:39:58 GMT, "Wyatt Emmerich"
wrote:

My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA
or
the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The Garmin
530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately,
often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears
and
heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or
towers.
We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is
this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.

I'm not sure why he's upset, that's what the manual says to do. See
page 67. Reach MAP, press OBS, follow plate's heading/alt
instructions, go to holding point.

You do have a responsibility to know the gear you're flying behind,
and having a GPS doesn't remove the responsibility to have plates, or
fly the plate as charted.

Admittedly, I don't hit OBS until I'm ready to go direct to the
holding point after climbing and turning as charted, but hitting OBS
right at the MAP doesn't appear "wrong" if you're reading the
procedure from the manual.

Wyatt Emmerich wrote:
I guess I'm in the minority, but I still think I'm right. The box ought to
do the job and not leave the pilot hanging. It should not draw a magenta
line straight into terrain or a tower, regardless of when the pilot decides
to hit the blinking SUSP button.

The instructor said every one of some eight pilots made the exact same
error. Calling them all "idiots" does nothing to address a very real
problem. This is sloppy TSO regulations and lazy programming on the part of
the FAA and Garmin.

....so I guess you'll be upgrading to a TSO146 navigator on an emergency basis.

You are essentially expecting the GNS530 to provide vertical navigation with
safeguards against terrain. It may seem simple enough to flash a message
given the situation you (and your instructor) are considering but it would
have to flash the same message before every missed approach. I for one would
not welcome an extra step to satisfy some of Garmin's lawyers during a very
busy time.

The magenta line only provides lateral navigation. Given that, I need to
ask:
1) How would it know your aircraft's climb capabilities?
2) How would it account for the different weight and wind considerations?
Maybe you CAN make it over the mountain.
3) Wouldn't it need full TAWS capabilities?

You're original point is a good one to consider but it's out of scope for
TSO-C129. I bet it is being considered during future TSO standards
development.

Marco Leon

"Wyatt Emmerich" wrote in message
...
I guess I'm in the minority, but I still think I'm right. The box ought to
do the job and not leave the pilot hanging. It should not draw a magenta
line straight into terrain or a tower, regardless of when the pilot
decides
to hit the blinking SUSP button.

The instructor said every one of some eight pilots made the exact same
error. Calling them all "idiots" does nothing to address a very real
problem. This is sloppy TSO regulations and lazy programming on the part
of
the FAA and Garmin.




"Peter Clark" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:39:58 GMT, "Wyatt Emmerich"
wrote:

My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA
or
the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The
Garmin
530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint.
Unfortunately,
often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears
and
heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or
towers.
We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point
is
this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the
pilot
to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.

I'm not sure why he's upset, that's what the manual says to do. See
page 67. Reach MAP, press OBS, follow plate's heading/alt
instructions, go to holding point.

You do have a responsibility to know the gear you're flying behind,
and having a GPS doesn't remove the responsibility to have plates, or
fly the plate as charted.

Admittedly, I don't hit OBS until I'm ready to go direct to the
holding point after climbing and turning as charted, but hitting OBS
right at the MAP doesn't appear "wrong" if you're reading the
procedure from the manual.





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Not only that but the Garmin 430 and 530 do reverse sensing under some
circumstances.

I t is easy to imagine these GPS's doing LOTS of things, and there are
lot of things possible they won't currently do . But that is the way
they work. Learn what they do and what they wont do. They are great
tools, but they don't do everything you can imagine.

Doug wrote On 10/13/05 14:05,:
Not only that but the Garmin 430 and 530 do reverse sensing under some
circumstances.


What circumstances ? You are flying upside down ?

Good thing the 8/8 showed up for a flight review!

The M3 does cue this, under the same TSO. Says something like
Climb, then u push it again and it gives course to holding fix.

I find that the 8/8 also never check the departure procedure on the
plates
and do not know that you implicitly insert those before your enroute
clearance.

Bill Hale BPPP instructor

What great defenders of mediocrity you all are! It is unbelievably simple to
program the 530 to flash the message "Do not press send until xxxx feet."
Or, pray tell, it could actually use the GPS to determine the altitude and
not blink the SUSP until you reach it.

What exactly is the point of defending the ancient "let the idiots die"
philosophy. I suspect it's some misguided macho "holier than thou" ideology
rooted more in egotism than desire for safe system.

As pilots, we should be pressing Garmin to do better, not excusing
substandard programming. Chelton and many others have already made this fix.
What is the point of making excuses for Garmin. You want all the pilots
lacking your skills to die? God bless you.



"Marco Leon" mmleon(at)yahoo.com wrote in message
...
You are essentially expecting the GNS530 to provide vertical navigation
with
safeguards against terrain. It may seem simple enough to flash a message
given the situation you (and your instructor) are considering but it would
have to flash the same message before every missed approach. I for one
would
not welcome an extra step to satisfy some of Garmin's lawyers during a
very
busy time.

The magenta line only provides lateral navigation. Given that, I need to
ask:
1) How would it know your aircraft's climb capabilities?
2) How would it account for the different weight and wind considerations?
Maybe you CAN make it over the mountain.
3) Wouldn't it need full TAWS capabilities?

You're original point is a good one to consider but it's out of scope for
TSO-C129. I bet it is being considered during future TSO standards
development.

Marco Leon

"Wyatt Emmerich" wrote in message
...
I guess I'm in the minority, but I still think I'm right. The box ought
to
do the job and not leave the pilot hanging. It should not draw a magenta
line straight into terrain or a tower, regardless of when the pilot
decides
to hit the blinking SUSP button.

The instructor said every one of some eight pilots made the exact same
error. Calling them all "idiots" does nothing to address a very real
problem. This is sloppy TSO regulations and lazy programming on the part
of
the FAA and Garmin.




"Peter Clark" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:39:58 GMT, "Wyatt Emmerich"
wrote:

My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach
MDA
or
the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The
Garmin
530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint.
Unfortunately,
often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to
climb
before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears
and
heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or
towers.
We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure
to
reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point
is
this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the
pilot
to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.

I'm not sure why he's upset, that's what the manual says to do. See
page 67. Reach MAP, press OBS, follow plate's heading/alt
instructions, go to holding point.

You do have a responsibility to know the gear you're flying behind,
and having a GPS doesn't remove the responsibility to have plates, or
fly the plate as charted.

Admittedly, I don't hit OBS until I'm ready to go direct to the
holding point after climbing and turning as charted, but hitting OBS
right at the MAP doesn't appear "wrong" if you're reading the
procedure from the manual.





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What circumstances ? You are flying upside down ?

Let us say you are approaching a waypoint headed due west. You push
direct to and have a course line to the waypoint. Now let us say thay
you move to the south by 1/2 mile. The waypoint is to your right
(north). The CDI reads to the right as it should. Your GPS says your
waypoint is 1/2 mile right. Now you DO A 180 DEGREE turn (to the south
so you are still south of the waypoint. Your CDI still says it is to
the right, indicating it is to the SOUTH!. (Unless you have a Garmin
480 which is the only IFR certified GPS unit that will correct for
this). Some handhelds may correct for this also. ALL the IFR GPS units
that were certified under the old spec (pre WAAS), will reverse sense.

Now you DO A 180 DEGREE turn

So, it behaves just like a VOR. Good. Pilots are used to VORs.

Jose
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