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#51
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A disturbing statistic
I got the information second-hand from the President of
Cirrus Design via a conversation with Rudy Frasca. "Gary Drescher" wrote in message . .. | "Jim Macklin" wrote in message | ... | Yes, also, reported that they were in the middle of the | river, not near the upwind shore. | | Was their path recorded with enough precision to make that determination? | | --Gary | | "Gary Drescher" wrote in message | . .. | | "Jim Macklin" wrote | in message | | ... | | It is still knots faster than he should have been to | make | | the turn. | | | | Probably. But even at that airspeed (112 mph), if they'd | turned with a | | 60-degree bank, they'd have had room to spare even if the | crosswind | | component had been as high as 30 knots (the turn diameter | would have been | | 975', and the turn would have taken 10 seconds, adding | 500' of drift; the | | river is 2000' wide). | | | | --Gary | | | | The true airspeed is what controls the radius, | | along with the bank angle. He had a quartering headwind | and | | the turn was such that it was a nearly direct tailwind. | | Being aware of the required turn and the speed and wind | | [which should have been on display in the glass panel] | both | | pilots screwed up IMHO. | | | | | | "Newps" wrote in message | | . .. | | | | | | | | | Jim Macklin wrote: | | | The point is that turn radius is directly related to | | speed. | | | It is possible to fly a 300 King Air at a slower | speed | | than | | | Lidle was flying his SR20 | | | | | | | | | | | | The reports say his ground speed was 112 mph. That's | | Cessna 150 territory. | | | | | | | | | | | | |
#52
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A disturbing statistic
"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
... "Gary Drescher" wrote in message . .. | "Jim Macklin" wrote in message | ... | Yes, also, reported that they were in the middle of the | river, not near the upwind shore. | | Was their path recorded with enough precision to make that | determination? I got the information second-hand from the President of Cirrus Design via a conversation with Rudy Frasca. Did he mention where the information came from? --Gary |
#53
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A disturbing statistic
Gary Drescher wrote:
"Jim Macklin" wrote in message ... "Gary Drescher" wrote in message m... | "Jim Macklin" wrote in message | ... | Yes, also, reported that they were in the middle of the | river, not near the upwind shore. | | Was their path recorded with enough precision to make that | determination? I got the information second-hand from the President of Cirrus Design via a conversation with Rudy Frasca. Did he mention where the information came from? That brings to mind a question I've had about panel-mount GPSs. Sorry for the thread-creep. All the handheld GPSs I've seen have a "recording" feature that allows you to see where you've been. I've never seen that in any panel-mount, but I wonder whether there's a hidden feature that is not accessible from the normal user interface. Seems like it would be valuable for accident investigation. If I were the NTSB, I'd recommend this feature be added, if it doesn't already exist. In case there's a portable GPS in an accident aircraft, does the NTSB extract the position history as part of its investigation? Dave |
#54
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A disturbing statistic
Dan Luke wrote:
Or ask yourself: how many celebrities can you name who have been killed in plane crashes vs. the number kiled in car crashes? In the former, quite a few; in the latter, just a couple. Now ask yourself: how much time do celebrities spend travelling in airplanes vs. the time spent in cars? Light aircraft? Not very many. Biz jets? Quite a few. |
#55
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A disturbing statistic
Peter wrote:
In addition to the large # of replies here, there is one huge factor to consider: When driving, and much more so when riding a motorbike, you are at the mercy of other drivers. If cars were spread out like airplanes are, then the advantage driving safety enjoys over light aircraft would be far greater than it is. |
#56
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A disturbing statistic
I was just talking to Rudy and the accident as it might
relate to glass cockpit came up. Rudy said that he had just talked with the Cirrus President and that besides the tailwind and bank angle issues, they were not making use of the full width of the river. How the Cirrus President knew this was not a question during the conversation. I'm assuming that there may be witnesses or even video surveillance records. I will certainly read the NTSB final report, but educated guesses can help pilots plan for a safer flight before the final report is issued. "Gary Drescher" wrote in message . .. | "Jim Macklin" wrote in message | ... | "Gary Drescher" wrote in message | . .. | | "Jim Macklin" wrote | in message | | ... | | Yes, also, reported that they were in the middle of the | | river, not near the upwind shore. | | | | Was their path recorded with enough precision to make that | | determination? | | I got the information second-hand from the President of | Cirrus Design via a conversation with Rudy Frasca. | | Did he mention where the information came from? | | --Gary | | |
#57
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A disturbing statistic
If the system included a "black box" that data could be
saved, but after a crash and fire and likely fractures chips, recovery of such data is not likely. "Dave Butler" wrote in message ... | Gary Drescher wrote: | "Jim Macklin" wrote in message | ... | | "Gary Drescher" wrote in message | m... | | "Jim Macklin" wrote | in message | | ... | | Yes, also, reported that they were in the middle of the | | river, not near the upwind shore. | | | | Was their path recorded with enough precision to make that | | determination? | | I got the information second-hand from the President of | Cirrus Design via a conversation with Rudy Frasca. | | | Did he mention where the information came from? | | That brings to mind a question I've had about panel-mount GPSs. Sorry | for the thread-creep. | | All the handheld GPSs I've seen have a "recording" feature that allows | you to see where you've been. I've never seen that in any panel-mount, | but I wonder whether there's a hidden feature that is not accessible | from the normal user interface. Seems like it would be valuable for | accident investigation. | | If I were the NTSB, I'd recommend this feature be added, if it doesn't | already exist. | | In case there's a portable GPS in an accident aircraft, does the NTSB | extract the position history as part of its investigation? | | Dave |
#58
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A disturbing statistic
Local pilots that do that trip know not to go up the East river unless
they've already talked to LGA tower and know they are cleared through at the other end. The river isn't that wide and turning a 180 is a challenge for most pilots in todays GA planes. If you find yourself in that situation it would make more sense to head over to the Manhattan side and turn towards Long Island City. There are a lot fewer high buildings over there. Worst case you bust LGA's airspace on the East side, it beats being dead. Robert Jim Macklin wrote: I was just talking to Rudy and the accident as it might relate to glass cockpit came up. Rudy said that he had just talked with the Cirrus President and that besides the tailwind and bank angle issues, they were not making use of the full width of the river. How the Cirrus President knew this was not a question during the conversation. I'm assuming that there may be witnesses or even video surveillance records. I will certainly read the NTSB final report, but educated guesses can help pilots plan for a safer flight before the final report is issued. "Gary Drescher" wrote in message . .. | "Jim Macklin" wrote in message | ... | "Gary Drescher" wrote in message | . .. | | "Jim Macklin" wrote | in message | | ... | | Yes, also, reported that they were in the middle of the | | river, not near the upwind shore. | | | | Was their path recorded with enough precision to make that | | determination? | | I got the information second-hand from the President of | Cirrus Design via a conversation with Rudy Frasca. | | Did he mention where the information came from? | | --Gary | | |
#59
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A disturbing statistic
Nothing beats local knowledge. Being a high time instructor
from Florida does not qualify that instructor to teach glacier flying. Likewise, a CFI from Atlanta does not have experience with NYC. ATC is not uniform in all regions. The air may be the same everywhere, but it behaves differently. Here in Kansas and Oklahoma, student pilots are regularly soloed with winds as high as 25 knots. But in many places, 15 knot winds cause panic with the CFIs. Every tower publishes local procedures and is very happy to speak with any pilot at any time. I have not flown VFR in the NYC area, all my trips have been in a King Air or Beechjet. But if I was VFR, I'd have the terminal chart, I would call the local tower and I'd seek a local instructor. If I was flying a seaplane up the East River, I might land and turn on the water. I certainly don't consider myself qualified to fly into every airport without "study" of local procedures. I have flown singles and light twins, as well as the King Air into STL, ATL, ORD and several other busy airports single-pilot. IFR is a piece of cake until you land, even from the higher cockpit of a King Air, taxiing at ATL or ORD is the difficult procedure. But landing or taking off from many airports is just difficult to do. Leadville is obvious, but Tahoe, Aspen, AngelFire don't look hard. Just heard a radio news report, the feds (NTSB?) are citing stiff wind and pilot error. "Robert Chambers" wrote in message . .. | Local pilots that do that trip know not to go up the East river unless | they've already talked to LGA tower and know they are cleared through at | the other end. The river isn't that wide and turning a 180 is a | challenge for most pilots in todays GA planes. | | If you find yourself in that situation it would make more sense to head | over to the Manhattan side and turn towards Long Island City. There are | a lot fewer high buildings over there. Worst case you bust LGA's | airspace on the East side, it beats being dead. | | Robert | | Jim Macklin wrote: | I was just talking to Rudy and the accident as it might | relate to glass cockpit came up. Rudy said that he had just | talked with the Cirrus President and that besides the | tailwind and bank angle issues, they were not making use of | the full width of the river. How the Cirrus President knew | this was not a question during the conversation. | | I'm assuming that there may be witnesses or even video | surveillance records. I will certainly read the NTSB final | report, but educated guesses can help pilots plan for a | safer flight before the final report is issued. | | | "Gary Drescher" wrote in message | . .. | | "Jim Macklin" wrote | in message | | ... | | "Gary Drescher" wrote in | message | | . .. | | | "Jim Macklin" | wrote | | in message | | | ... | | | Yes, also, reported that they were in the middle of | the | | | river, not near the upwind shore. | | | | | | Was their path recorded with enough precision to make | that | | | determination? | | | | I got the information second-hand from the President of | | Cirrus Design via a conversation with Rudy Frasca. | | | | Did he mention where the information came from? | | | | --Gary | | | | | | |
#60
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A disturbing statistic
"Sam Spade" wrote: Or ask yourself: how many celebrities can you name who have been killed in plane crashes vs. the number kiled in car crashes? In the former, quite a few; in the latter, just a couple. Now ask yourself: how much time do celebrities spend travelling in airplanes vs. the time spent in cars? Light aircraft? Not very many. Cory Lidle, Scott Crossfield, Game show host Peter Tomarken, vocalist Aaliyah, Mel Carnahan, Tony Lee Bettenhausen Jr., JFK Jr., John Denver, baseball player Jim Hardin, Art Scholl, Hale Boggs, Buddy Holly, Audie Murphy, Rocky Marciano, Jim "Gentleman" Reeves, Patsy Cline, Buddy Clark, Will Rogers & Wiley Post... and that's not including helicopters. Not many? Biz jets? Quite a few. -- Dan C172RG at BFM |
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