Alternate same as departure?

"Brien K. Meehan" wrote in
oups.com:

Actually, I've filed similar plans with Lansing, and they wouldn't let
me. They insisted that I file at least 2 plans, one departing Midland
and the other departing Lansing.

I've also tried to file flight plans with the alternate the same as the
departure, and they wouldn't take it. I didn't argue, and just gave
another nearby alternate (e.g. DET instead of PTK).

Not all FSS specialists know everything they need to know.

--
Regards,

Stan

I've also tried to file flight plans with the alternate the same as the
departure, and they wouldn't take it. I didn't argue, and just gave
another nearby alternate (e.g. DET instead of PTK).

They have no basis to refuse to take it. The alternate airport doesn't
even get processed into the system beyond the originating FSS.

I know of an operator who operates a Gulfstream 5 on a regular basis from
LAX to HNL. During the winter when the weather is really churning in the
islands with a tropical convergence and all that brings, he files LAX as
his alternate. Experience has shown that operator that since they can
carry the fuel it is sometimes better to turn around should things be
nastier than forecast when they arrive in the area over there.

dlevy wrote:
I should have mentioned I wouldn't depart if it didn't qualify as an
alternate.

Why not?

"Brien K. Meehan" wrote:
Actually, I've filed similar plans with Lansing, and they wouldn't let
me. They insisted that I file at least 2 plans, one departing Midland
and the other departing Lansing.

Technically, they should let you do that, but I'm sure there's some
operational reason why it's easier on ATC to have two distinct flight
plans, so I'm willing to go with the flow on this. The pilot and ATC
need to act as a team for things to work efficiently. If one team
member says, "please just do it my way" and it's no big deal to comply,
there's no reason to get bent out of shape over it.

I've also tried to file flight plans with the alternate the same as the
departure, and they wouldn't take it. I didn't argue, and just gave
another nearby alternate (e.g. DET instead of PTK).

This one I just don't understand. What alternate you file has
absolutely no impact for ATC. It's a regulatory obligation that the
pilot has to comply with to be legal. There's no reason at all that FSS
or ATC should give a rats ass what your alternate is, and for an FSS guy
to refuse to accept your stated alternate is absurd. I'd have told the
guy to just enter the flight plan the way I read it to him.

That's just one more reason I prefer DUAT to FSS. The DUAT software may
not be the most user friendly in the world, but at least each time I log
in, it doesn't invent some new stupid rule that doesn't really exist.
As long as the flight plan I give it is syntactically and semantically
correct, it accepts whatever bizarre route I felt like inventing without
giving me any 'tude.

Because I would use the qualification as an alternate as a reasonable way to
get back on the ground.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
...
dlevy wrote:
I should have mentioned I wouldn't depart if it didn't qualify as an
alternate.

Why not?

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 10:39:22 -0600, "dlevy" wrote:

Because I would use the qualification as an alternate as a reasonable way to
get back on the ground.

The qualifications for an alternate have nothing to do with a
reasonable way to get back on the ground, except by coincidence.

Alternates are used for computing legal fuel requirements.

What you do to get back on the ground will depend on circumstances at
the time.

There's a huge difference between "alternate" and "alternative".



"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
dlevy wrote:
I should have mentioned I wouldn't depart if it didn't qualify as an
alternate.

Why not?

Aren't alternates also used by ATC for lost comm fun? In radar environments,
it's probably not as big of a deal. But when not in radar, if you miss at
your destination, ATC has a pretty good idea where you're headed next if you
listed an alternate. Or at least where you said you would head if things
didn't work out at the destination.


wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 10:39:22 -0600, "dlevy" wrote:

Because I would use the qualification as an alternate as a reasonable way
to
get back on the ground.

The qualifications for an alternate have nothing to do with a
reasonable way to get back on the ground, except by coincidence.

Alternates are used for computing legal fuel requirements.

What you do to get back on the ground will depend on circumstances at
the time.

There's a huge difference between "alternate" and "alternative".



"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
dlevy wrote:
I should have mentioned I wouldn't depart if it didn't qualify as an
alternate.

Why not?

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 18:39:51 GMT, "Steven Barnes"
wrote:

Aren't alternates also used by ATC for lost comm fun? In radar environments,
it's probably not as big of a deal. But when not in radar, if you miss at
your destination, ATC has a pretty good idea where you're headed next if you
listed an alternate. Or at least where you said you would head if things
didn't work out at the destination.


One of aviation's biggest myths.




wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 10:39:22 -0600, "dlevy" wrote:

Because I would use the qualification as an alternate as a reasonable way
to
get back on the ground.

The qualifications for an alternate have nothing to do with a
reasonable way to get back on the ground, except by coincidence.

Alternates are used for computing legal fuel requirements.

What you do to get back on the ground will depend on circumstances at
the time.

There's a huge difference between "alternate" and "alternative".



"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
dlevy wrote:
I should have mentioned I wouldn't depart if it didn't qualify as an
alternate.

Why not?

Steven Barnes wrote:
Aren't alternates also used by ATC for lost comm fun? In radar environments,
it's probably not as big of a deal. But when not in radar, if you miss at
your destination, ATC has a pretty good idea where you're headed next if you
listed an alternate. Or at least where you said you would head if things
didn't work out at the destination.

Nope, ATC doesn't even know what you filed as an alternate. It's not on the
flight progress strip. DGB

If your goal is to get someplace, turning around and going back home
may not be very useful, but it's certainly legal.

It may be very useful. If you have a "there or nowhere" destination -
meaning if you can't get in there, you might as well never have left
home - and your home is a valid alternate, it makes no sense not to use
it.

Whenever I make a business trip from Houston to Austin when the weather
is iffy in Austin but not in Houston, I file my alternate back in
Houston. If I can't get in at Austin, it does me no good to get in
somewhere 50 miles away with no arrangements for ground transport. I'm
going to miss my meeting anyway, so I might as well turn around and go
home.

Michael