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Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 23rd 06, 02:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,326
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

Jim Carter wrote:


Since circle to land is published for a fixed altitude, I am
assured of obstacle clearance no matter which direction I turn. I just
prefer to keep the old Mk1 eyeball on the target throughout the
approach.


Just don't miss the occasional note that prohibits circling on one side
of some airports.
  #12  
Old December 23rd 06, 03:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,326
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

Stan Prevost wrote:
I'm not sure why JAN approach was giving you landing instructions.
Shouldn't that be left for the HKS tower, after approach control had
sequenced you in for the approach?



Not accoring to 7110.85P:

4-8-6. CIRCLING APPROACH

a. Circling approach instructions may only be given for aircraft
landing at airports with operational control towers.

b. Include in the approach clearance instructions to circle to the
runway in use if landing will be made on a runway other than that
aligned with the direction of instrument approach. When the direction of
the circling maneuver in relation to the airport/runway is required,
state the direction (eight cardinal compass points) and specify a left
or right base/downwind leg as appropriate.

  #13  
Old December 23rd 06, 04:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Stan Prevost
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Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

Thanks, I knew I should have looked it up first. I have never received
landing instructions other than from a tower, but I see why from the rule.
I haven't had to circle to land at a towered field other than on a
circling-only approach. Approach Control has given me approach clearance,
but left the circling instructions to the tower. The rule is slightly
amgiuous, seems to be written on the assumption that the approach from which
circling will commence is aligned with a runway, and may or may not include
circling-only approaches arriving at 90 degrees to any runway. I will
assume that it was meant to include those approaches also.

On further thought, maybe I lied. Several years ago, I flew an ILS into
KORL with a strong tailwind, circle to land on another runway, at night when
the other ILS was OTS. I don't remember the exact sequence of events, but I
think Orlando Approach (KMCO) sequenced me in and cleared me for the ILS,
told me to expect to circle to land on the other runway, but the tower
actually handled the circling. That was a harrowing experience, with all
the turbulence, and trying to circle over the city and find runway lights
and to follow one or two other aircraft that couldn't be seen amongst the
lights. We certainly had to circle more than 1.3 nm from the runways, but I
can't remember the altitude. I'm pretty sure it was above circling minimum.


"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...
Stan Prevost wrote:
I'm not sure why JAN approach was giving you landing instructions.
Shouldn't that be left for the HKS tower, after approach control had
sequenced you in for the approach?



Not accoring to 7110.85P:

4-8-6. CIRCLING APPROACH

a. Circling approach instructions may only be given for aircraft landing
at airports with operational control towers.

b. Include in the approach clearance instructions to circle to the runway
in use if landing will be made on a runway other than that aligned with
the direction of instrument approach. When the direction of the circling
maneuver in relation to the airport/runway is required, state the
direction (eight cardinal compass points) and specify a left or right
base/downwind leg as appropriate.



  #14  
Old December 23rd 06, 05:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mark Hansen
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Posts: 420
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

On 12/22/06 21:06, A Lieberma wrote:
Mark Hansen wrote in
:

On 12/22/06 14:46, A Lieberma wrote:
Was out doing approaches this morning to knock off the rust.

Called into JAN approach and requested ILS approaches into HKS under
visual rules.

Was 5 miles outside Brenz final approach fix and received the
clearance; Cleared for the ILS 16 approach or circle to land 34
Hawkins.


As Sam said, I don't know why they would have said this. Presumably,
the approach controller know whether you intended to terminate your
approach with a missed approach or landing - is that true?


I had requested an ILS approach after the approach when I received the
clearance, so approach knew I wasn't doing a full stop.


I would argue that ATC thought you *were* doing a full stop, otherwise
they wouldn't tell you to circle.

You either terminate with a missed approach or a landing. The missed
approach doesn't include a 'circle to land'.



When I've flown circle to land maneuvers at non-towered fields, I've
descended to the standard TPA and joined the pattern (this assumes
VMC, of course).


Before I got my Garmin 430, all I could do was circle to land at my home
airport KMBO. Even with my new addition, I request the VOR Alpha as it
makes it real easy to join the pattern when VFR traffic in the mix.

Allen




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
  #15  
Old December 23rd 06, 05:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mark Hansen
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Posts: 420
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

On 12/22/06 16:40, Jim Carter wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: A Lieberma ]
Posted At: Friday, December 22, 2006 4:46 PM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?
Subject: Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

Was out doing approaches this morning to knock off the rust.

Called into JAN approach and requested ILS approaches into HKS under
visual
rules.

Was 5 miles outside Brenz final approach fix and received the

clearance;
Cleared for the ILS 16 approach or circle to land 34 Hawkins.

Exactly what is expected for a circle to land? Should I jog over to

the
right of the runway on my descent and enter downwind? At what

altitude?
The airport terminal is immediately to the right as well as the tower.

Winds were 290 at 8 knots under VMC.

Allen


Al,
Since your question seems to be more about the mechanics of the
process than the clearance terminology, my approach has always been to
circle such that I can keep a visual on the landing zone. That typically
means a left circle regardless of what the published traffic pattern
might be.

Since circle to land is published for a fixed altitude, I am


Minimum altitude, not fixed, right?

assured of obstacle clearance no matter which direction I turn. I just


Actually, the IAP may prohibit circling to one side or the other.

prefer to keep the old Mk1 eyeball on the target throughout the
approach.

Circle to land at minimums is a very exciting end to a journey
and usually reminds me exactly how small my bladder happens to be. I
need all the advantage I can get so the left turns help out.





--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
  #16  
Old December 23rd 06, 05:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mark Hansen
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Posts: 420
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

On 12/22/06 21:11, A Lieberma wrote:
"Jim Carter" wrote in news:001701c7262a$f464b0f0
$4b01a8c0@omnibook6100:

Al,
Since your question seems to be more about the mechanics of the
process than the clearance terminology, my approach has always been to
circle such that I can keep a visual on the landing zone. That

typically
means a left circle regardless of what the published traffic pattern
might be.

Since circle to land is published for a fixed altitude, I am
assured of obstacle clearance no matter which direction I turn. I just
prefer to keep the old Mk1 eyeball on the target throughout the
approach.

Circle to land at minimums is a very exciting end to a journey
and usually reminds me exactly how small my bladder happens to be. I
need all the advantage I can get so the left turns help out.


Thanks Jim!

Yes, when it's a long trip, anything to shorten the approach phase is
always appreciated when "nature calls" *big smile*.

I am used to circle to approach landings at my own airport, just never
had one for opposite ends of the runway


The circle to land is required anytime the landing runway is more than
a set number of degrees from the approach course (I can't remember the
exact number of degrees - maybe 10 or 30?). Obviously, the runway opposite
to the approach course would qualify ;-)


Allen




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
  #17  
Old December 23rd 06, 05:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Jose[_1_]
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Posts: 1,632
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

You either terminate with a missed approach or a landing. The missed
approach doesn't include a 'circle to land'.


A clearance for a missed doesn't include a clearance for a circle, but
one can certainly go missed after circling.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #18  
Old December 23rd 06, 06:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Roy Smith
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Posts: 478
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

In article ,
Jose wrote:

You either terminate with a missed approach or a landing. The missed
approach doesn't include a 'circle to land'.


A clearance for a missed doesn't include a clearance for a circle, but
one can certainly go missed after circling.

Jose


Just to be clear about this...

Let's say the airport is using 34, and you're cleared by approach control
for the ILS-16 circle to 34 in VFR conditions as a practice approach. It
would be a very poor idea indeed for you to execute the circling maneuver,
do a low approach, then decide to execute the published missed on your own.
This would have you swimming upstream against the traffic on final for 34.

If that's what you really want to do, make sure you verify your intentions
with the tower. If there's no conflicting traffic, they should be able to
let you do it, but that would be unusual. When I'm with a student,
negotiating these sorts of things with ATC is part of my job.
  #19  
Old December 23rd 06, 07:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
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Posts: 1,326
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

Mark Hansen wrote:


The circle to land is required anytime the landing runway is more than
a set number of degrees from the approach course (I can't remember the
exact number of degrees - maybe 10 or 30?). Obviously, the runway opposite
to the approach course would qualify ;-)


30 degrees for ground based, 15 for RNAV.

Also, descent gradient limitations, straight-has to be to TDZ; circling
just to MDA.

And, a third, less often an issue, are limitations on the electronic
guidance's proximity to the runway centerline, extended.
  #20  
Old December 25th 06, 04:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
ghogue
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Posts: 1
Default Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?


Stan Prevost Wrote:
I'm not sure why JAN approach was giving you landing instructions.
Shouldn't that be left for the HKS tower, after approach control had
sequenced you in for the approach?


Stan,
Approach needs to inform you if you are circling to another runway in
order for you to determine which minimums to use. It would probably be
to late to plan a "circling" maneuver if you weren't informed until
handed off to tower.



--
ghogue
Posted at www.flight.org

 




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