Light weight Euro-diesels

Bill Daniels wrote:


You know, I just don't buy the "skin radiators won't work" theory. The
pre-war Schneider Cup Seaplane racers did use skin radiators to cool some
really big engines. There are LOTS of reasons skin radiators weren't used
on WWII fighters - bullet holes being one. Since then, piston aero engines
have been air-cooled.

I don't either.

A diesel fuel-cooled plant would NOT use raw fuel in its coolant
passages. It would have a conventional glycol "primary loop", with a
radiator-behind doors or (in front of) cowl flaps, a cabin heat
exchanger ("heater core" in autoese), and an intercooler with fuel
circulated through it and returned to tanks. It would be designed so
the fuel loop could be shut off-bypassed- when the rad had its doors
open as would be done when the aircraft was very low on fuel, or in
high thermal load situations.

At altitude (this is a turbodiesel and flies at high FL) the ambient
temperature is very cold and the normal radiator could be blanked off
largely or entirely. If the tanks are designed with a lot of surface
area they will cool a large percentage of the engine's total heat
rejection and additionally provide anti-icing.

The main requirement as I see it is the system has to be default
failsafe and provide single lever power control. Unless you want to
make it a two person flight crew aircraft and haul a FE along.

GeorgeB wrote:
On 26 Sep 2005 14:47:36 -0700, "
wrote:




The lubricity issue is one that I asked a buddy of mine aobut when
Thielert said their "auto based" engine would run JetA ...

Enquiring minds would like to know more.

Detroit Diesel sent out a notice recently that their Series 50 and 60
engines are now authorized to use DF-1, DF-2, JP-5/Jet-A and JP-8 with
full warranty support.

Airports have always run ramp tugs, fuel trucks (the Brits call them
"bowsers"), and start carts on Jet-A. Jet-A is NOT K-1 Kerosene, it has
a lubricity standard which is higher, and it's fine in most diesel
pumps. Adding some SAE 30 nondetergent oil to the fuel, or filtered
drain oil NOT contaminated with lead deposits, helps lubricity and will
offer added protection. I would not use two cycle oil because it has
octane improvers in some cases-octane improvers are cetane killers!

There is good reason to find a far higher percentage of diesel car
ownership among airline and corporate A&P's than one would expect.

Alan Petrillo wrote:
Philippe Vessaire wrote:

No anti-froze agent needed, just an fuel/water heat exchange and the whole
tank become warmer when the engine is runnig. For pure biodiesel, the car
choice is an exhaust/fuel heat exchange.

I've never seen this. All of the biodiesel/vegoil cars I've seen have
used coolant/fuel heat exchangers.


AP

A lot of the car retrofits bypass the fuel return. The piston-pump
diesels typically have 2 fuel lines, one up and one back. If you had a
consistently high flow you potentially could use the return line to
feed heated oil to to the tank. In the case of biodiesel this would
probably be sufficient to heat the tanks. Though it would make plumbing
fuel tank selector a bit more complicated.

-Matt

Alan Petrillo wrote:
Morgans wrote:

wrote


The other possibility would be to stick a radiator in each wing root
and funnel ram air through the radiator into the wing cavity. The
warmed air would then be the heating element. I wonder if that would be
sufficient to prevent gelling and also provide some minor wing heat
without all the complexity.


You really need to take some physics and thermodynamics. Right now, you
need to buy a vowel.

I'm only kinda kidding. What you are proposing isn't being done, because it
won't work. Sorry.

Well, again, has anyone done the engineering on this?

As I understand it, what he's talking about is simply using underwing
radiators and ducting the exhaust air from the radiators through the
interior of the wings before allowing it to flow out of exhaust ports.
I can see how it might work, the question is how well it would work.
Would it provide enough heat to the wing skin to keep ice from adhering
to it?


AP

Thanks Allan,

One of the remaining issues of course is that it is my understanding
that it typically isn't the wing ice that kills you. It is the ice on
the elevator and horizontal stab. Doh! You end up trimming out the
effect of the ice until there is no more trim left and... Bonzai!

I only have 250 hours, and have never experienced icing personally.

Given that cabin heaters are only a foot or two of exhaust pipe, I to
have to second guess Jims assessment of the situation. Though I do
remember being a little frosty at 10K MSL in the winter in my M20E, I
did at least get _some_ heat.

1. With a liquid cooled engine you _have_ to have an auxillary heat
sync of some kind.

2. If waste heat can be used to improve safety or performance it should
be.

3. Using biodiesel presents additional safety hazards related
specifically to loss of thermal energy that _have_ to be engineered out
for the fuel to become suitable for aviation use.

From where I stand all of that kind of goes together.

Wait... let me get my rain coat. I hear Jim comming.

-Matt

Well you see, there are these things called electric heating elements.
And low and behold some are even certified to install in real live
flying machines! And if we are really quite and sneak up on the guys
who manufacture them...

Can I buy an "o"

-Matt

wrote

A lot of the car retrofits bypass the fuel return. The piston-pump
diesels typically have 2 fuel lines, one up and one back. If you had a
consistently high flow you potentially could use the return line to
feed heated oil to to the tank. In the case of biodiesel this would
probably be sufficient to heat the tanks.

It would seem to cause a problem if the tank were sitting for a period of
time in the cold, yes? What then?
--
Jim in NC

Here is the VW tdi as an industrial engine.

Given the application I would expect there is a big honkin flywheel on
this thing that would be removed for aviation purposes. Then after
replacing the the alternator etc etc. It would still be heavy, but
potentially doable.

http://www.maesco.com/products/vwp/v...dieselpto.html

Anyway, it's something interesting to look at.

-Matt

wrote in message

Here is the VW tdi as an industrial engine.

Given the application I would expect there is a big honkin flywheel on
this thing that would be removed for aviation purposes. Then after
replacing the the alternator etc etc. It would still be heavy, but
potentially doable.

I would wonder about the potentially doable part. It is nearly 300 lbs, and
only 78 HP. Even if you could get 100 lbs off of it, (doubtful) that would
still be 200 lbs, for less than 80 HP. That is bad in anybody's book.
--
Jim in NC

If I had said "spectacular" I would understand your beef.

Here are the respective weights of a few engines for comparison.

Engine HP Weight(lbs) Comments
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Continental A-65 65 173
Limbach L 1800 66 154
Limbach L 1700 66 161
Rotax 618 74 136 Includes 20 lbs radiator, etc.
Great Plains VW 2180CC 75 165
Franklin 225 75 230
_______________________________________________

"doable". It wouldn't be efficient. But it would fly. If one fiddled
with the wastegate or injection computer they could probably get more
power. The guys with the powerstrokes are doing some crazy things these
days and some of that tech would probably carry over to the TDI.

What do you fly by the way Jim?

Can i get an "s" ?

-Matt

Maybe some of these will help. Seem to be working well in the cars.

http://dieseltuning.ca/
http://www.upsolute.com/eng/index.html

Some talk about the rocket chip:

http://www.upsolute.com/eng/index.html

Some controls can be programed with this:

http://www.ross-tech.com/


David Ervin


wrote in message
oups.com...
Here is the VW tdi as an industrial engine.

Given the application I would expect there is a big honkin flywheel on
this thing that would be removed for aviation purposes. Then after
replacing the the alternator etc etc. It would still be heavy, but
potentially doable.

http://www.maesco.com/products/vwp/v...dieselpto.html

Anyway, it's something interesting to look at.

-Matt