Clearwater FL mid air; one fatality

CNN Headline News reported a mid air event between two aircraft at a
Clearwater FL airpark. One plane had a tail number of N6622S if I
read the upside down numbers correctly.

Ron Lee

Airplane down was a C-150, one fatality. The other was a Twin Comanche
which landed safely, but damaged. They apparantly collided on the downwind
leg. All we heard in the FBO was a call "entering downwind" and then
"**final **runway, we've had a midair, the other plane went down". The two
guys in the twin were pretty shaken up. Headings of the planes at time of
collision is sketchy at this point. I think they did see each other, though
obviously not soon enough.

A middle-aged couple who had been flying north of the area decided to call
it quits earlier than planned because, according to them, too many planes in
the sky, erratic pattern flying and lack of position calls. Last week a cop
showed up at the FBO with a tow bar that had fallen off of a plane and
landed in a neighborhood, and now this (the 150 crashed 10' from the monkey
bars on a playground; no one hurt on the ground that I know of).

I almost hit a bonanza last year on the downwind at CLW that didn't call his
position - an all too common problem.


"Ron Lee" wrote in message
...
CNN Headline News reported a mid air event between two aircraft at a
Clearwater FL airpark. One plane had a tail number of N6622S if I
read the upside down numbers correctly.

Ron Lee

Complacency / Poor Discipline / 'Cockiness' - I see a lot of it here too.

Oh how I wish more people would give more thought to the fact that these
machines can kill you in a moment if not treated with respect.

CC

gatorcog" wrote in message
ink.net...


I almost hit a bonanza last year on the downwind at CLW that didn't call
his
position - an all too common problem.


The 'all too common problem' here is relying upon someone else (i.e., the
other pilot, ATC, ad infinitum)... for safety, traffic avoidance, proper
maintenance, whatever.

According to your statement, an accident almost happened because someone
ELSE failed to do something. Excuse me for reacting, but that's not how the
system works!

Having done it myself, I submit that such thinking IS the most considerable
factor in the GA accident rate.


Using the NTSB report for the Caldwell, NJ midair from 11/2002 almost
totally verbatim, here's what your accident report might have said:

"The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s)
of this accident as follows:

The inadequate visual lookout of both pilots. Factors in the accident was
the [Bonanza pilot's] failure to provide a traffic advisory, ...."



"Loving _________, thought someone else would ...______ [make a position
report]."

We are PIC. Be the PIC and never let go for a second.

--

Bob
PP-ASEL-IA, A/IGI

I didn't hit the bonanza precisely because I did see and avoid him. I call
all my positions and listen for others, too.
One has to look out for oneself. Combining visual and aural vigilance is
one way to do this. Unfortunately, there's an attitude out there among some
pilots, especially old timers, that "I don't have to talk to anybody, I've
been doing this for years, I know what I'm doing" etc. Sometimes it catches
up with you.

Thanks for your reaction

"Robert Henry" wrote in message
news:hqzOb.3721$_H5.2989@lakeread06...
gatorcog" wrote in message
ink.net...


I almost hit a bonanza last year on the downwind at CLW that didn't call
his
position - an all too common problem.


The 'all too common problem' here is relying upon someone else (i.e., the
other pilot, ATC, ad infinitum)... for safety, traffic avoidance, proper
maintenance, whatever.

According to your statement, an accident almost happened because someone
ELSE failed to do something. Excuse me for reacting, but that's not how
the
system works!

Having done it myself, I submit that such thinking IS the most
considerable
factor in the GA accident rate.


Using the NTSB report for the Caldwell, NJ midair from 11/2002 almost
totally verbatim, here's what your accident report might have said:

"The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s)
of this accident as follows:

The inadequate visual lookout of both pilots. Factors in the accident was
the [Bonanza pilot's] failure to provide a traffic advisory, ...."



"Loving _________, thought someone else would ...______ [make a position
report]."

We are PIC. Be the PIC and never let go for a second.

--

Bob
PP-ASEL-IA, A/IGI

gatorcog wrote:

I didn't hit the bonanza precisely because I did see and avoid him. I call
all my positions and listen for others, too.

And if you called at the same time that he did, both of you are cussing that other
NORDO *******.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

"gatorcog" wrote in message
ink.net...
Unfortunately, there's an attitude out there among some
pilots, especially old timers, that "I don't have to talk to anybody, I've
been doing this for years, I know what I'm doing" etc. Sometimes it
catches
up with you.

Thanks for your reaction

Ok, but you completely missed it.

gatorcog wrote:
I didn't hit the bonanza precisely because I did see and avoid him. I call
all my positions and listen for others, too.

Don't call every position, it's unnecessary and annoying. For example
if you are alone in the pattern then one call per pattern, midfield
downwind, is all you need. If the pattern is really busy and you are
following the same guy then same deal, one call midfield. If somebody
is nearing the airport and will be joining the pattern then more calls
make sense. We have a college flight school that trains at an airport
11 SW of here and with three in the pattern you'd think it was O'Hare.
It is a constant nonstop barrage of totally useless traffic calls. Fer
Christ sakes they are making a call when they taxi from the ramp to the
runway.

you, sir, are an idiot, in addition to a troll.

and a quite unattractive troll at that.

the AIM states that you call every position in the pattern, be it in
crosswind, downwind, base or final. the aim is advisory, you say, and
not regulatory! oh ho, but explain that to an NTSB judge when you've
knocked another plane out of the sky and ended several people's lives
prematurely because you thought the advisory information was
unnecessary, and didn't contribute enough to safety to justify lifting
your green, sausagelike finger and depressing the extremely life limited
PTT switch, energizing the grossly inefficient, hence gasoline wasting
radio, which jeopardizes the lives of thousands of birds in your
vicinity simply through its frankensteinesque, extravagant use of
radiant energy.

in fact, you probably have to start your APU just to transmit.

in all seriousness, i certainly hope you don't come into contact with
student pilots or pilots that are still malleable in their attention to
detail or attitude towards doing every last useful thing to further
safety of flight for everyone; not just themselves.

you need only consider the situation where instrument traffic gets a
late handoff to an uncontrolled CTAF, and someone not making any calls
going onto base or final, and you have yourselves an error chain fit for
a midair. when both planes are low, slow, and focused on the runway.
need me to draw a picture?

in addition: this college you speak of? they are training people?
sadly, people do not spring forth fully formed from the foreheads of
others; only gods. this being said, radio skills do not spring forth
fully formed from the foreheads of CFIs either. students must learn by
experience. and this experience usually includes saying "uhhh, uhhh,
uhhhh cessna uhhhh, uhhhh" on the radio for some time. give them a
break. they're not at o'hare. they're not at your airport. they're at
their airport. they probably don't want some nordo freak coming in and
screwing up their pattern anyway.

note: read the AIM on proper radio speaking technique, not just when to
speak. you'll probably cut down your transmission lengths by half.

AND ANOTHER THING. stop asking for any traffic in the area to please
advise when you change to CTAF; change 10nm out, that way you can listen
for anyone in the pattern making PROPER calls on EVERY leg. of course,
if there was only one person in the pattern there, and they were making
one call on every downwind, and doing full-stop taxibacks, you probably
want to listen up 20nm up if you're not flying a piper cub.

%nfsd

Newps wrote:


gatorcog wrote:

I didn't hit the bonanza precisely because I did see and avoid him. I
call
all my positions and listen for others, too.


Don't call every position, it's unnecessary and annoying. For example
if you are alone in the pattern then one call per pattern, midfield
downwind, is all you need. If the pattern is really busy and you are
following the same guy then same deal, one call midfield. If somebody
is nearing the airport and will be joining the pattern then more calls
make sense. We have a college flight school that trains at an airport
11 SW of here and with three in the pattern you'd think it was O'Hare.
It is a constant nonstop barrage of totally useless traffic calls. Fer
Christ sakes they are making a call when they taxi from the ramp to the
runway.

I've flown a full traffic pattern entry and landed and not made a radio
call...

it's not because I did not want to.. it's because I could not get a word
in...

every ya who out there was talking up a storm.. to include the multiple
calls from the jump plane to the landing zone 4 miles away trying to wake up
the landing zone safety group plus his 30 second transmission announcing the
impending jump before he takes off.. and again about the time he's kicking
them out there door....

and the 4 aircraft in the pattern on different parallel runways.. and the
"overflight calls" from aircraft well above the traffic pattern going to
another airport, and the practice area calls over the dry lake 3 miles
away.. and the acro club calling the practice box hot... plus everyone was
blocking each others calls..

in the end.. it's still.. see and be seen..

oh yeah.. I hate those guys that call in to a CTAF freq.. asking "Unicom"..
for an airport advisory.. there is no Unicom.. but there are 4 planes in the
pattern.. on CTAF.. and the inbound doesn't even know the runway numbers or
layout.. or the guy that calls a left pattern to the right side runway,
crossing the left runway final approach course in the process.. and then
asking.. so which is the longer runway.. can't you tell by looking??

so much for preflight planning... they set up for a "standard left traffic
pattern" and then realize they are on the wrong side of the airport for the
runway they really want. Or the "short" 3500x60ft runway spooks them and
they go for the big one (4500x75) from the wrong side. I've seen a new
Cirrus use every foot of the 4500ft runway with a 5knt downwind landing.. so
he could save a circuit and land straight in, no one answered his call for
an "advisory" and he chose not to overfly and look at the wind sock. There
was no one on the radio when he called was his answer. There is NEVER anyone
on the radio if you are the only one in the pattern.

oh.. and watch out for those guys that go IFR.. "I Follow Railroads"... at
800ft AGL.. and right through the airport traffic pattern downwind for the
east side runway at cruise speed.. and never make a call..

At least the local State Police aircraft and Flight for Life emergency
helicopters make the call when they transition the airspace.. going down the
interstate on the "other side" of the airport in the west runways traffic
pattern. And they do alter their flight path if traffic reports in the
pattern.

BT

"Enefesdi Varspooli Bhootpalamdi" wrote in message
news:X7HOb.36420$Ar1.28533@fed1read04...
you, sir, are an idiot, in addition to a troll.

and a quite unattractive troll at that.

the AIM states that you call every position in the pattern, be it in
crosswind, downwind, base or final. the aim is advisory, you say, and
not regulatory! oh ho, but explain that to an NTSB judge when you've
knocked another plane out of the sky and ended several people's lives
prematurely because you thought the advisory information was
unnecessary, and didn't contribute enough to safety to justify lifting
your green, sausagelike finger and depressing the extremely life limited
PTT switch, energizing the grossly inefficient, hence gasoline wasting
radio, which jeopardizes the lives of thousands of birds in your
vicinity simply through its frankensteinesque, extravagant use of
radiant energy.

in fact, you probably have to start your APU just to transmit.

in all seriousness, i certainly hope you don't come into contact with
student pilots or pilots that are still malleable in their attention to
detail or attitude towards doing every last useful thing to further
safety of flight for everyone; not just themselves.

you need only consider the situation where instrument traffic gets a
late handoff to an uncontrolled CTAF, and someone not making any calls
going onto base or final, and you have yourselves an error chain fit for
a midair. when both planes are low, slow, and focused on the runway.
need me to draw a picture?

in addition: this college you speak of? they are training people?
sadly, people do not spring forth fully formed from the foreheads of
others; only gods. this being said, radio skills do not spring forth
fully formed from the foreheads of CFIs either. students must learn by
experience. and this experience usually includes saying "uhhh, uhhh,
uhhhh cessna uhhhh, uhhhh" on the radio for some time. give them a
break. they're not at o'hare. they're not at your airport. they're at
their airport. they probably don't want some nordo freak coming in and
screwing up their pattern anyway.

note: read the AIM on proper radio speaking technique, not just when to
speak. you'll probably cut down your transmission lengths by half.

AND ANOTHER THING. stop asking for any traffic in the area to please
advise when you change to CTAF; change 10nm out, that way you can listen
for anyone in the pattern making PROPER calls on EVERY leg. of course,
if there was only one person in the pattern there, and they were making
one call on every downwind, and doing full-stop taxibacks, you probably
want to listen up 20nm up if you're not flying a piper cub.

%nfsd

Newps wrote:


gatorcog wrote:

I didn't hit the bonanza precisely because I did see and avoid him. I
call
all my positions and listen for others, too.


Don't call every position, it's unnecessary and annoying. For example
if you are alone in the pattern then one call per pattern, midfield
downwind, is all you need. If the pattern is really busy and you are
following the same guy then same deal, one call midfield. If somebody
is nearing the airport and will be joining the pattern then more calls
make sense. We have a college flight school that trains at an airport
11 SW of here and with three in the pattern you'd think it was O'Hare.
It is a constant nonstop barrage of totally useless traffic calls. Fer
Christ sakes they are making a call when they taxi from the ramp to the
runway.