Hey Dudley, detailed analysis of these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4_iJ...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN1lC...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9txDhi5wC2A

Have my own notions, but would be interested from a pros viewpoint.

I'm assuming that mechanical was not a factor in any of these, BTW.Might
have been, but it appears that in each case the pilot went in with no
commital gates and no escape route.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4_iJ...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN1lC...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9txDhi5wC2A

Have my own notions, but would be interested from a pros viewpoint.

I'm assuming that mechanical was not a factor in any of these, BTW.Might
have been, but it appears that in each case the pilot went in with no
commital gates and no escape route.

Bertie

Can't say much about the Extra (at least it looked like an Extra) but
the Hurricane and the King Cobra are accidents I've been involved in
with safety discussions within the war bird demonstration community.

To me, the KC accident looked like the result of a way too low energy
state going through the top gate. He should have had at least 150
indicated inverted on top but it looked like he lost his energy to drag
going up the up line by pulling too much g. He was practically dead in
the water on top but apparently at fairly high power. This looked like
it torqued him in roll pretty good and he lost it coming through the
gate. He recovered as the angle of attack narrowed back into the work
range but by then he was committed way too nose low and had no radial g
available to affect the recovery.

The Hurricane looks like it will come down to a simple brain fart. The
guy was very qualified and had experience. So far it looks like he
simply committed to a Split S below his minimum AGL parameter for the
Hurricane. This one is very similar to the Thunderbird F16 accident at
Mountain Home AFB where the team lost a Viper. Brain fart!


--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4_iJ...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN1lC...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9txDhi5wC2A

Have my own notions, but would be interested from a pros viewpoint.

I'm assuming that mechanical was not a factor in any of these,
BTW.Might have been, but it appears that in each case the pilot went
in with no commital gates and no escape route.

Bertie

Can't say much about the Extra (at least it looked like an Extra) but
the Hurricane and the King Cobra are accidents I've been involved in
with safety discussions within the war bird demonstration community.


OK, the first one should have been the T6 slow roll where he dished out
in the end.(orange one in south america?)
Looks like he had nothing even beginning the roll and had completely
lost the plot by the time he reached even 45 degrees and should have
just thrown it away at that point.

To me, the KC accident looked like the result of a way too low energy
state going through the top gate. He should have had at least 150
indicated inverted on top but it looked like he lost his energy to
drag going up the up line by pulling too much g. He was practically
dead in the water on top but apparently at fairly high power. This
looked like it torqued him in roll pretty good and he lost it coming
through the gate. He recovered as the angle of attack narrowed back
into the work range but by then he was committed way too nose low and
had no radial g available to affect the recovery.


OK, pretty much as I saw it as well (though I ould never have put it so
well!) But it seems to me he should have been formulating some sort of
plan to get out as he neared the top of the first loop and saw it all
going wrong. Never flown anything as powerful, fast and heavy as that
doing aerobatics, of course, but it seems to me he had only two options
after he passed 90deg; a hammerhead might have been a bit ropey at that
altitude in that airplane, and I don't know if they're even on the menu
in that thing. A hammerhead being ruled out for whatever reason, I'd
just pitch over forward hard and bump my way out if the airspeed was
that far gone. The bottom of the list would be to pull hard and then
roll out, which is what he did, intetionally or otherwise, but if he had
pulled a bit harder a bit earlier, he'd at least have exited the torque
roll a bit more nose down which might have avoided the secondary
problem.
Did it have fuel injection? Was he having to think about avoiding
negative G?

The Hurricane looks like it will come down to a simple brain fart. The
guy was very qualified and had experience. So far it looks like he
simply committed to a Split S below his minimum AGL parameter for the
Hurricane. This one is very similar to the Thunderbird F16 accident at
Mountain Home AFB where the team lost a Viper. Brain fart!


Again, exactly as I saw it. He was screwed the second he rolled over.
Reason I ask is I was just wondering how good my eye was after so long
away from aerobatics.


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4_iJ...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN1lC...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9txDhi5wC2A

Have my own notions, but would be interested from a pros viewpoint.

I'm assuming that mechanical was not a factor in any of these,
BTW.Might have been, but it appears that in each case the pilot went
in with no commital gates and no escape route.

Bertie
Can't say much about the Extra (at least it looked like an Extra) but
the Hurricane and the King Cobra are accidents I've been involved in
with safety discussions within the war bird demonstration community.


OK, the first one should have been the T6 slow roll where he dished out
in the end.(orange one in south america?)
Looks like he had nothing even beginning the roll and had completely
lost the plot by the time he reached even 45 degrees and should have
just thrown it away at that point.
To me, the KC accident looked like the result of a way too low energy
state going through the top gate. He should have had at least 150
indicated inverted on top but it looked like he lost his energy to
drag going up the up line by pulling too much g. He was practically
dead in the water on top but apparently at fairly high power. This
looked like it torqued him in roll pretty good and he lost it coming
through the gate. He recovered as the angle of attack narrowed back
into the work range but by then he was committed way too nose low and
had no radial g available to affect the recovery.


OK, pretty much as I saw it as well (though I ould never have put it so
well!) But it seems to me he should have been formulating some sort of
plan to get out as he neared the top of the first loop and saw it all
going wrong. Never flown anything as powerful, fast and heavy as that
doing aerobatics, of course, but it seems to me he had only two options
after he passed 90deg; a hammerhead might have been a bit ropey at that
altitude in that airplane, and I don't know if they're even on the menu
in that thing. A hammerhead being ruled out for whatever reason, I'd
just pitch over forward hard and bump my way out if the airspeed was
that far gone. The bottom of the list would be to pull hard and then
roll out, which is what he did, intetionally or otherwise, but if he had
pulled a bit harder a bit earlier, he'd at least have exited the torque
roll a bit more nose down which might have avoided the secondary
problem.
Did it have fuel injection? Was he having to think about avoiding
negative G?
The Hurricane looks like it will come down to a simple brain fart. The
guy was very qualified and had experience. So far it looks like he
simply committed to a Split S below his minimum AGL parameter for the
Hurricane. This one is very similar to the Thunderbird F16 accident at
Mountain Home AFB where the team lost a Viper. Brain fart!


Again, exactly as I saw it. He was screwed the second he rolled over.
Reason I ask is I was just wondering how good my eye was after so long
away from aerobatics.


Bertie

Didn't see the T6 roll on these links, but I think I remember the crash.
The 6 has a lousy roll rate and loses energy like a brick when rolling
and doing 2 in a row while down in the weeds can bite you in the butt
dishing out. More than one guy's lost a T6 this way.

The Cobra; his best chance would have been to anticipate the torque roll
carrying all that MP and throttle back to idle before it torqued out on
him, then rolling to the nearest horizon after a mistake like he made on
the way up. In certain conditions you just don't get a second chance in
prop fighters.

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:



Didn't see the T6 roll on these links, but I think I remember the
crash. The 6 has a lousy roll rate and loses energy like a brick when
rolling and doing 2 in a row while down in the weeds can bite you in
the butt dishing out. More than one guy's lost a T6 this way.

Yeah, gave you the wrong one the sifrst time and couldn't get it when I
replied. Youtube seemed to be down or something. Still is. He just did a
single roll. It's pretty obvious from the get go that he hasn't got a
chance. By the time he's 90 deg left the nose is well down on the
horizon and he's commited to some major thrashinbg around on the
elevators and rudder to keep the thing goin which degenerates into
dishing out of the bottom in a big way towards the end. I am surprised
about your comments on it losing energy, though..

The Cobra; his best chance would have been to anticipate the torque
roll carrying all that MP and throttle back to idle before it torqued
out on him, then rolling to the nearest horizon after a mistake like
he made on the way up. In certain conditions you just don't get a
second chance in prop fighters.


OK, that makes sense. I get the feeling he was a bit surprised by the
time he reached the 3/8ths point of the loop and had no real plan out.
They do teach this nowadays, right? I was quizzed mercilessly about
escape routes from all sorts of fjukkups (all of which I had a good
answer for) by the FAA inspector that signed my waiver. Do inspectors
even do those anymore? Evrythng else seems to be done by someone else
these days.





Bertie

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4_iJ...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN1lC...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9txDhi5wC2A

Have my own notions, but would be interested from a pros viewpoint. I'm
assuming that mechanical was not a factor in any of these, BTW.Might have
been, but it appears that in each case the pilot went in with no commital
gates and no escape route. Bertie

Can't say much about the Extra (at least it looked like an Extra) but the
Hurricane and the King Cobra are accidents I've been involved in with
safety discussions within the war bird demonstration community.

To me, the KC accident looked like the result of a way too low energy
state going through the top gate. He should have had at least 150
indicated inverted on top but it looked like he lost his energy to drag
going up the up line by pulling too much g. He was practically dead in the
water on top but apparently at fairly high power. This looked like it
torqued him in roll pretty good and he lost it coming through the gate. He
recovered as the angle of attack narrowed back into the work range but by
then he was committed way too nose low and had no radial g available to
affect the recovery.

What was his "out" once he was inverted and slow?

I assume the proper recovery is to pull back the power to a manageable
level, unload the airplane, and get the nose below the horizon in order to
build some airspeed. Once the airplane is flying again, feed in the power
while rolling level, then pull...



The Hurricane looks like it will come down to a simple brain fart. The guy
was very qualified and had experience. So far it looks like he simply
committed to a Split S below his minimum AGL parameter for the Hurricane.
This one is very similar to the Thunderbird F16 accident at Mountain Home
AFB where the team lost a Viper. Brain fart!


--
Dudley Henriques

"Viperdoc" wrote in
:

Looking at the Extra, it looked like his tumbles were done pretty low.
Most of the ones I've seen and tried are some variations of outside
snap inputs, and you generally end up with zero airspeed at full
power. If you watch the pros at an airshow, they tend to do snaps and
tumbles at a reasonable altitude, and only rolling stuff at the bottom
of looping figures down low.

It looks like he kind of was in a position of low kinetic energy
(airspeed), and low potential energy (low altitude). It's hard to
recover from that combination.

Yeah, that one was pretty obvious. Not a lot of speed and I'd say he
probably didn't even have a handle on his altitude at that stage. Another
case of ignoring gates or letting the proceedings get too far ahead of you
to keep up.

By the way, WTF is a tumble? Is that what you call those tight little
barrel rolls that are all the rage these days or are you talking about a
lomcevok?


As someone pointed out to me earlier via e-mail, those you tube comments
make usenet look positively educational!


Bertie

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in
:




What was his "out" once he was inverted and slow?

I assume the proper recovery is to pull back the power to a manageable
level, unload the airplane, and get the nose below the horizon in
order to build some airspeed. Once the airplane is flying again, feed
in the power while rolling level, then pull...



Yeah, exactly. Can't see any other way out at the top, but I would have
thought he should have recognised the mess a lot earlier, i.e., at or
before reaching 90deg.
Looks like he was braving it out for the benefit of the crowd.

A bit like this guy..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUzjLxqHy5g

The show must go on, huh?

Bertie

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
"Kyle Boatright" wrote in
:




What was his "out" once he was inverted and slow?

I assume the proper recovery is to pull back the power to a manageable
level, unload the airplane, and get the nose below the horizon in
order to build some airspeed. Once the airplane is flying again, feed
in the power while rolling level, then pull...



Yeah, exactly. Can't see any other way out at the top, but I would have
thought he should have recognised the mess a lot earlier, i.e., at or
before reaching 90deg.
Looks like he was braving it out for the benefit of the crowd.

A bit like this guy..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUzjLxqHy5g

The show must go on, huh?

Bertie

The strange thing about the Yak near-pancake is that the guy comes over the
top with plenty of airspeed, gets the nose down, and then doesn't pull
enough G's until very late when he's past the vertical. Another quarter or
half G after he'd gotten the nose down and he wouldn't have had a memorable
recovery.

KB

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in
:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
"Kyle Boatright" wrote in
:




What was his "out" once he was inverted and slow?

I assume the proper recovery is to pull back the power to a
manageable level, unload the airplane, and get the nose below the
horizon in order to build some airspeed. Once the airplane is flying
again, feed in the power while rolling level, then pull...



Yeah, exactly. Can't see any other way out at the top, but I would
have thought he should have recognised the mess a lot earlier, i.e.,
at or before reaching 90deg.
Looks like he was braving it out for the benefit of the crowd.

A bit like this guy..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUzjLxqHy5g

The show must go on, huh?

Bertie

The strange thing about the Yak near-pancake is that the guy comes
over the top with plenty of airspeed, gets the nose down, and then
doesn't pull enough G's until very late when he's past the vertical.
Another quarter or half G after he'd gotten the nose down and he
wouldn't have had a memorable recovery.



Yes, well that;'s all in the name of getting it close enough to make it
spectacular for the crowd of course.

This guy was less lucky..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifoHKZw_JQs



Bertie