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#1
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"Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"
I actually received this comment today from an FSS (US Flight service)
specialist when I called for an IFR flight briefing for a flight from Boston back to Syracuse, NY, early this afternoon. The Bridgeport FSS specialist was not joking either. He went on to say that too often pilots express concerns to him about seeing yellows and reds on the radar when he knows there is no convection in the area. Unbelievable. I made the mistake of responding by pointing out that it certainly is easy to make those comments while sitting safely in a chair in a building. I then continued by asking him where he was so that I could stop by his airport, pick him up, and take him for a ride through some level three returns. His reply was that he already has plenty of hours doing just that. -- Peter |
#2
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"Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"
He went on to say that too often pilots express concerns to him about seeing yellows and reds on the radar when he knows there is no convection in the area. This seems quite reasonable to me. A given level of return might be quite flyable in stratus, but quite something else in convective conditions. |
#3
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"Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"
Mike Granby wrote:
This seems quite reasonable to me. A given level of return might be quite flyable in stratus, but quite something else in convective conditions. Today's activity was the result of a low pressure system just over the border of the US into Canada that sent a pretty strong cold front marching across New England. The temperature differences on either side of the cold front were about 30 degrees F. Now I am not a meteorologist by trade or university, but I am pretty confident that the level three and higher returns showing up on radar ahead of this cold front today were not falling from a stratus layer. Presumably the FSS specialist was quite aware of the weather maker causing the rain and should have saved his smart-assed comments for another, more docile day. This day there were good reasons for a single engine aircraft to avoid the "non-green colors" on radar, given that the big jets all were making every effort to do so *and* that convective Sigments were released for portions of New England while we were en route. -- Peter |
#4
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"Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"
Now I am not a meteorologist by trade or university, but I am pretty
confident that the level three and higher returns showing up on radar ahead of this cold front today were not falling from a stratus layer. Don't be so confident. I recall one trip from Destin back to Houston where I nearly drove a controller who was just as certain as you are into a conniption fit. It so happened he was wrong too. I was flying my PA-30, which doesn't have RADAR of any sort (not even the XM kind) but does have a good Stormscope. I had already deviated North to avoid an area of convection (the screen was lit up) but headed West once I was North of the activity. The controller almost did not allow me to turn West - he insisted I would be flying through an area of Level II and III returns, with small areas of IV (that's red) in an area covered by a convective SIGMET. And he was right. However, all the actual convective activity was now South of me. I flew through some moderate and even heavy rain - with no turbulence to speak of. Nothing worse than occasional light chop. I flew in and between stratus layers. The controller was checking on me every few minutes, asking if I needed to deviate - because all he had was the RADAR and the SIGMET. There really are times when you can have areas of yellow and red, in conditions that look like they favor convective activity, and in fact right next to convective activity, which are nonetheless stratiform and quite comfortable to penetrate. The key is knowing that convection is not there. Now how one is to know that without a good 'spherics device is beyond me. Michael |
#5
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"Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"
Michael wrote:
There really are times when you can have areas of yellow and red, in conditions that look like they favor convective activity, and in fact right next to convective activity, which are nonetheless stratiform and quite comfortable to penetrate. The key is knowing that convection is not there. Now how one is to know that without a good 'spherics device is beyond me. While I do see your point (and always have sided with you on your recurring theme of getting proper utility out of an aircraft), this particular flight was a return leg of an Angel Flight mission; it was not a mission critical freight dog flight. I certainly don't see any harm in erring on the side of caution in wanting to stay clear of level three and higher returns, especially when there is an advancing cold front in the area. Whether these particular returns contained destructive turbulence or not was not something I wanted to test. All of the weather conditions that day suggested they could be convective and that was enough for me. Additionally, my point in starting this thread was to question whether it is really the FSS specialist's job to imply that I am being too conservative when asking about the colorful radar returns? IMO, absolutely not. By the way, I recall one flight a couple of Septembers ago where the red returns were due to a local radar being set too sensitive for the falling *wet snow*. In this particular briefing, the FSS specialist was very good. He didn't imply that I was too concerned about seeing red. Instead, he investigated my concerns by pulling up the metars from the area, spotted snow being reported, then concluding that it was a radar sensitivity issue, not convective activity, that was causing the reds. -- Peter |
#6
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"Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"
Whether these particular returns contained destructive turbulence or not
was not something I wanted to test. Actually, it's not something you EVER want to test. I inadvertently penetrated a Level 3 once, and would not willingly do so again. My point is that if you have reliable static discharge data, it's not something you're testing. You can't have strong convection with water droplets without having static discharges. It's just not possible. If the water is there and the static discharges are not, then there's no convection and penetration is safe. It's just that simple. My trip wasn't exactly critical either, and I could have deviated an extra 30 miles and been outside the convective SIGMET. But what's the point? Deviating around stratiform cloud with rain? Now without 'sferics, I would certainly have deviated. Or maybe not, if I had live lightning data piped into my cockpit. Additionally, my point in starting this thread was to question whether it is really the FSS specialist's job to imply that I am being too conservative when asking about the colorful radar returns? I made no comment on that part of your post. I think you made your point, it's been discussed, and I have nothing to add to it. No, of course it's not appropriate - but then you get what you pay for. Pesonally I prefer a self-briefing with DUATS. Michael |
#7
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"Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"
"Michael" wrote: There really are times when you can have areas of yellow and red, in conditions that look like they favor convective activity, and in fact right next to convective activity, which are nonetheless stratiform and quite comfortable to penetrate. The key is knowing that convection is not there. Now how one is to know that without a good 'spherics device is beyond me. WxWorx. Red precip without lightning: http://www.seaerospace.com/garmin/396pic2.jpg Red precip with lightning: http://www.seaerospace.com/garmin/396pic8.jpg http://www.seaerospace.com/garmin/396pic9.jpg It is not real time like 'spherics, but it is timely enough to have tactical value. I have seen it accurately show lightning where there was not yet any precip. depicted. I've used it--coincidentally in the Destin area--to penetrate weather that ATC had warned me about. The little inverted triangles are METARs that are very useful in verifying the nature of NEXRAD returns. Both have their limitations. The optimum situation would be to have 'spherics *and* satellite. Having to choose, I'll take the XM weather because it does so much more. -- Dan C-172RG at BFM |
#8
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"Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"
Dan Luke wrote:
WxWorx. Red precip without lightning: http://www.seaerospace.com/garmin/396pic2.jpg Red precip with lightning: http://www.seaerospace.com/garmin/396pic8.jpg Nice. WSI downlinked weather displayed on a Garmin MX20 moving map: Will never display the lightning data now offered by WSI, thanks to the feud between these two companies. Between WSI and TIS, I don't know how many more technological dead-ends I can choose in one lifetime. -- Peter |
#9
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"Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"
On Sun, 21 May 2006 19:17:03 -0400, "Peter R."
wrote: I actually received this comment today from an FSS (US Flight service) specialist when I called for an IFR flight briefing for a flight from Boston back to Syracuse, NY, early this afternoon. The Bridgeport FSS specialist was not joking either. He went on to say that too often pilots express concerns to him about seeing yellows and reds on the radar when he knows there is no convection in the area. Unbelievable. I made the mistake of responding by pointing out that it certainly is easy to make those comments while sitting safely in a chair in a building. I then continued by asking him where he was so that I could stop by his airport, pick him up, and take him for a ride through some level three returns. His reply was that he already has plenty of hours doing just that. On a flight just a week or two before I was to take the instrument check ride my instructor had my file a plan from 3BS - MBS VOR - LAN (ILS) - AMN (NDB) - 3BS (VOR). The area between MBS and LAN was about 40 to 50 miles of solid yellow and red. I questioned the wisdom of flying into such things and my instructor said, "You did get a briefing didn't you?" to which I replied, "Yes". He asked, "Was there any convective activity in progress or forecast?"... No there wasn't. Are conditions favorable for convective activity? No they weren't. ... Any other questions? At this point he informed me he was just going to be a passenger even if he was officially PIC. So, we picked up our clearance and headed into the rain and man did it rain! Torrential rain, but it was one of the smoothest rides I've had. Coming back from Lansing (LAN) to Alma (AMN) was one of the most picturesque rides I've ever had. We were between layers. There were columns of cloud joining the two layers and individual clouds floating around in there. The light was almost a fluorescent green or at least had a strong green cast. It was beautiful. The approach into Alma was a left turn to the NDB which is 5 miles west of the field. Then the PT back to the NDB all the while just skimming the top of the layer while going through the occasional piece sticking up. The feeling of speed was tremendous. At the NDB we started the descent into torrential rain. We broke out about 50 feet above MDA in heavy rain with the runway directly ahead. We went missed and headed for home. Suddenly we were back in bright sunshine and MBS approach told us to expect the visual into Midland (3BS). Unfortunately of fortunately depending on your view all we could see in the Midland area was more clouds. So the reply was we'd like to do the VOR-A into 3BS if it was OK with them. They didn't know it was solid over there. We had vectors to intercept the approach inbound which made it an easy one, but again we were very close to minimums and a mile to the east of the airport it was below minimums which we reported to app. It was one whale of a nice ride, a good work out, and three different approaches right down to almost minimums. All this through what I had expected to be a really rough ride due to those red and yellow reflections which really are only showing precipitation. Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair) www.rogerhalstead.com |
#10
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"Are you worried about all those non-green colors on the radar?"
It isn't so much the level of the return, but the gradient
and attenuation. When Doppler radar is available areas of turbulence can be directly detected. But conventional radar must be used as a hint to what may be happening, based on local knowledge, terrain, prevailing weather and even time of day. Any FSS, any ground based reporter or forecaster may be as brave as they want, but to tell a pilot that they should not be concerned or "act cowardly" is just plain stupid. I would recommend that any IFR pilot get the books (and if possible) take Capt. David Gwinn's course on radar. And read Capt. Robert Buck's book, Weather Flying. And FSS persons should explain and teach, rather than dare and goad. -- James H. Macklin ATP,CFI,A&P -- The people think the Constitution protects their rights; But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome. some support http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties. "Roger" wrote in message ... | On Sun, 21 May 2006 19:17:03 -0400, "Peter R." | wrote: | | I actually received this comment today from an FSS (US Flight service) | specialist when I called for an IFR flight briefing for a flight from | Boston back to Syracuse, NY, early this afternoon. The Bridgeport FSS | specialist was not joking either. He went on to say that too often pilots | express concerns to him about seeing yellows and reds on the radar when he | knows there is no convection in the area. | | Unbelievable. I made the mistake of responding by pointing out that it | certainly is easy to make those comments while sitting safely in a chair in | a building. I then continued by asking him where he was so that I could | stop by his airport, pick him up, and take him for a ride through some | level three returns. His reply was that he already has plenty of hours | doing just that. | | On a flight just a week or two before I was to take the instrument | check ride my instructor had my file a plan from 3BS - MBS VOR - LAN | (ILS) - AMN (NDB) - 3BS (VOR). | | The area between MBS and LAN was about 40 to 50 miles of solid yellow | and red. I questioned the wisdom of flying into such things and my | instructor said, "You did get a briefing didn't you?" to which I | replied, "Yes". He asked, "Was there any convective activity in | progress or forecast?"... No there wasn't. Are conditions favorable | for convective activity? No they weren't. ... Any other questions? | At this point he informed me he was just going to be a passenger even | if he was officially PIC. | | So, we picked up our clearance and headed into the rain and man did it | rain! Torrential rain, but it was one of the smoothest rides I've | had. Coming back from Lansing (LAN) to Alma (AMN) was one of the most | picturesque rides I've ever had. We were between layers. There were | columns of cloud joining the two layers and individual clouds floating | around in there. The light was almost a fluorescent green or at least | had a strong green cast. It was beautiful. | | The approach into Alma was a left turn to the NDB which is 5 miles | west of the field. Then the PT back to the NDB all the while just | skimming the top of the layer while going through the occasional piece | sticking up. The feeling of speed was tremendous. At the NDB we | started the descent into torrential rain. We broke out about 50 feet | above MDA in heavy rain with the runway directly ahead. We went | missed and headed for home. | | Suddenly we were back in bright sunshine and MBS approach told us to | expect the visual into Midland (3BS). Unfortunately of fortunately | depending on your view all we could see in the Midland area was more | clouds. So the reply was we'd like to do the VOR-A into 3BS if it was | OK with them. They didn't know it was solid over there. | | We had vectors to intercept the approach inbound which made it an easy | one, but again we were very close to minimums and a mile to the east | of the airport it was below minimums which we reported to app. | | It was one whale of a nice ride, a good work out, and three different | approaches right down to almost minimums. All this through what I had | expected to be a really rough ride due to those red and yellow | reflections which really are only showing precipitation. | | Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) | (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair) | www.rogerhalstead.com |
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