FAA Revoking Standard Airworthiness Certificate DG-505

We imported a DG-505 Elan Orion built at the AMS Flight, d.o.o. (AMS)
factory in Slovenia in 2006. It came with a Slovenian Certificate of
Airworthiness and an AMS data plate. It was built under a German
Standard Airworthiness Certificate which designates AMS in Slovenia as
the manufacturer. DG is the owner of the European Standard Flight
Certificate.

At the time of import the U.S. Standard Type Certificate designated
the DG factory in Germany as the only acceptable manufacturer making
no mention of AMS in Slovenia. To correct this situation the Small
Aircraft Directorate at the FAA for gliders rewrote the type
certificate to make AMS in Slovenia an acceptable manufacturer. This
in part allowed the glider to receive a U.S. Standard Airworthiness
Certificate.

Also the glider did not have a German certificate of airworthiness but
only a Slovenian certificate of airworthiness. AMS had not sent the
aircraft to Germany to receive a German certificate of airworthiness.
The FAA was initially demanding a German airworthiness certificate but
again the FAA directorate modified the U.S. certificate to make any
EASA (the new European Union aviation administration) member nation as
an acceptable supplier of an airworthiness certificate. Because
Slovenia was on the cusp of being a member of EASA in 2006 (and now is
a full member) the designated airworthiness representative granted the
U.S. Standard Airworthiness Certificate.

Now 2 years later the FAA has told us its own actions were a mistake
and is about to revoke the standard airworthiness certificate if we do
not relinquish it freely. The FAA is saying that the changes to the
U.S. certificate that were made by the directorate in Kansas City were
in error. They are indicating that they did not realize that Elan
aircraft were not built in Germany and because the FAA has no
bilateral agreement (BASA) with Slovenia the certificate must be
relinquished.

Can the FAA do this at this late date? DG and AMS have not been
willing to resolve this issue and have basically said that the only
alternative is for us to ship the aircraft back to Germany and have
the aircraft reissued at our own expense.

Thanks for any help!
N505LG

On Oct 17, 4:06*pm, NG wrote:
We imported a DG-505 Elan Orion built at the AMS Flight, d.o.o. (AMS)
factory in Slovenia in 2006. *It came with a Slovenian Certificate of
Airworthiness and an AMS data plate. *It was built under a German
Standard Airworthiness Certificate which designates AMS in Slovenia as
the manufacturer. *DG is the owner of the European Standard Flight
Certificate.

At the time of import the U.S. Standard Type Certificate designated
the DG factory in Germany as the only acceptable manufacturer making
no mention of AMS in Slovenia. *To correct this situation the Small
Aircraft Directorate at the FAA for gliders rewrote the type
certificate to make AMS in Slovenia an acceptable manufacturer. *This
in part allowed the glider to receive a U.S. Standard Airworthiness
Certificate.

Also the glider did not have a German certificate of airworthiness but
only a Slovenian certificate of airworthiness. *AMS had not sent the
aircraft to Germany to receive a German certificate of airworthiness.
The FAA was initially demanding a German airworthiness certificate but
again the FAA directorate modified the U.S. certificate to make any
EASA (the new European Union aviation administration) member nation as
an acceptable supplier of an airworthiness certificate. *Because
Slovenia was on the cusp of being a member of EASA in 2006 (and now is
a full member) the designated airworthiness representative granted the
U.S. Standard Airworthiness Certificate.

Now 2 years later the FAA has told us its own actions were a mistake
and is about to revoke the standard airworthiness certificate if we do
not relinquish it freely. *The FAA is saying that the changes to the
U.S. certificate that were made by the directorate in Kansas City were
in error. * They are indicating that they did not realize that Elan
aircraft were not built in Germany and because the FAA has no
bilateral agreement (BASA) with Slovenia the certificate must be
relinquished.

Can the FAA do this at this late date? *DG and AMS have not been
willing to resolve this issue and have basically said that the only
alternative is for us to ship the aircraft back to Germany and have
the aircraft reissued at our own expense.

Thanks for any help!
N505LG

Is there a reason (e.g. commercial use?) you cannot go experimental
racing/exhibition. Otherwise I'd suggest taking your problem to an
aviation lawyer. AOPA legal services may be a good place to start.

Darryl

On Oct 17, 4:06*pm, NG wrote:
...DG and AMS have not been
willing to resolve this issue and have basically said that the only
alternative is for us to ship the aircraft back to Germany and have
the aircraft reissued at our own expense.

Just curious, did you buy the ship through one of their dealers, and
if so, what do they have to say about this situation?

Bob K.

On Oct 17, 5:06*pm, NG wrote:
We imported a DG-505 Elan Orion built at the AMS Flight, d.o.o. (AMS)
factory in Slovenia in 2006. *It came with a Slovenian Certificate of
Airworthiness and an AMS data plate. *It was built under a German
Standard Airworthiness Certificate which designates AMS in Slovenia as
the manufacturer. *DG is the owner of the European Standard Flight
Certificate.

At the time of import the U.S. Standard Type Certificate designated
the DG factory in Germany as the only acceptable manufacturer making
no mention of AMS in Slovenia. *To correct this situation the Small
Aircraft Directorate at the FAA for gliders rewrote the type
certificate to make AMS in Slovenia an acceptable manufacturer. *This
in part allowed the glider to receive a U.S. Standard Airworthiness
Certificate.

Also the glider did not have a German certificate of airworthiness but
only a Slovenian certificate of airworthiness. *AMS had not sent the
aircraft to Germany to receive a German certificate of airworthiness.
The FAA was initially demanding a German airworthiness certificate but
again the FAA directorate modified the U.S. certificate to make any
EASA (the new European Union aviation administration) member nation as
an acceptable supplier of an airworthiness certificate. *Because
Slovenia was on the cusp of being a member of EASA in 2006 (and now is
a full member) the designated airworthiness representative granted the
U.S. Standard Airworthiness Certificate.

Now 2 years later the FAA has told us its own actions were a mistake
and is about to revoke the standard airworthiness certificate if we do
not relinquish it freely. *The FAA is saying that the changes to the
U.S. certificate that were made by the directorate in Kansas City were
in error. * They are indicating that they did not realize that Elan
aircraft were not built in Germany and because the FAA has no
bilateral agreement (BASA) with Slovenia the certificate must be
relinquished.

Can the FAA do this at this late date? *DG and AMS have not been
willing to resolve this issue and have basically said that the only
alternative is for us to ship the aircraft back to Germany and have
the aircraft reissued at our own expense.

Thanks for any help!
N505LG

Appear to be four in the US. You might also advise the FAA
Governmental Liaison Committee if you haven't already done so.

Frank Whiteley

On Oct 17, 11:47*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Oct 17, 5:06*pm, NG wrote:



We imported a DG-505 Elan Orion built at the AMS Flight, d.o.o. (AMS)
factory in Slovenia in 2006. *It came with a Slovenian Certificate of
Airworthiness and an AMS data plate. *It was built under a German
Standard Airworthiness Certificate which designates AMS in Slovenia as
the manufacturer. *DG is the owner of the European Standard Flight
Certificate.

At the time of import the U.S. Standard Type Certificate designated
the DG factory in Germany as the only acceptable manufacturer making
no mention of AMS in Slovenia. *To correct this situation the Small
Aircraft Directorate at the FAA for gliders rewrote the type
certificate to make AMS in Slovenia an acceptable manufacturer. *This
in part allowed the glider to receive a U.S. Standard Airworthiness
Certificate.

Also the glider did not have a German certificate of airworthiness but
only a Slovenian certificate of airworthiness. *AMS had not sent the
aircraft to Germany to receive a German certificate of airworthiness.
The FAA was initially demanding a German airworthiness certificate but
again the FAA directorate modified the U.S. certificate to make any
EASA (the new European Union aviation administration) member nation as
an acceptable supplier of an airworthiness certificate. *Because
Slovenia was on the cusp of being a member of EASA in 2006 (and now is
a full member) the designated airworthiness representative granted the
U.S. Standard Airworthiness Certificate.

Now 2 years later the FAA has told us its own actions were a mistake
and is about to revoke the standard airworthiness certificate if we do
not relinquish it freely. *The FAA is saying that the changes to the
U.S. certificate that were made by the directorate in Kansas City were
in error. * They are indicating that they did not realize that Elan
aircraft were not built in Germany and because the FAA has no
bilateral agreement (BASA) with Slovenia the certificate must be
relinquished.

Can the FAA do this at this late date? *DG and AMS have not been
willing to resolve this issue and have basically said that the only
alternative is for us to ship the aircraft back to Germany and have
the aircraft reissued at our own expense.

Thanks for any help!
N505LG

Appear to be four in the US. *You might also advise the FAA
Governmental Liaison Committee if you haven't already done so.

Frank Whiteley

Sorry, meant SSA Governmental Liaison Committee.

First the problems with the DG-300 spars, and now the DG-505
paperwork. In both cases DG apparently feel that they are absolved
of any responsibility to their customers--and have little concern
for future sales, apparently.

Fine airplanes, as a rule: damn poor attitude, though.

Have DG never heard of customer support after the sale? There must
be people here in the US who would be willing to help US owners of
both types sort through these problems with minimal cost and
frustration, if DG would be willing to do their part to coordinate.

Expecting customers to ship a glider back to Europe at the owner's
expense to solve factory production or government paperwork
problems, is not a foundation on which to build trust. Perhaps
they should remember that designing good aircraft is only one part
of the business.

The FAA have their own problems, of course. How nice it would be
if DG could show it is on a higher plane.


Jack

On Oct 17, 10:56*pm, Jack wrote:
First the problems with the DG-300 spars, and now the DG-505
paperwork. In both cases DG apparently feel that they are absolved
of any responsibility to their customers--and have little concern
for future sales, apparently.

Fine airplanes, as a rule: damn poor attitude, though.

Have DG never heard of customer support after the sale? There must
be people here in the US who would be willing to help US owners of
both types sort through these problems with minimal cost and
frustration, if DG would be willing to do their part to coordinate.

Expecting customers to ship a glider back to Europe at the owner's
expense to solve factory production or government paperwork
problems, is not a foundation on which to build trust. Perhaps
they should remember that designing good aircraft is only one part
of the business.

The FAA have their own problems, of course. How nice it would be
if DG could show it is on a higher plane.

Jack

After sale? DG did not make a sale here. From what I can see based on
the registration date of this glider this was likely sold by a US
Dealer of AMS Flight. DG was not involved. If the USA Dealer or AMS
Flight stated the aircraft was type certificated in the USA they
should fix the issue. Maybe the AMS dealer was sloppy or unaware of an
issue (but they ought to still help fix it), maybe he thought it would
be registered as experimntal. First question again is does the glider
need to be type certificated or will experimental do. It looks like it
is registered to two individual owners, if it's just for private
flying then stop all the hassle now and go experimental.

If the problem was the glider needed a real live German certificate of
airworthiness at time of import then it may well be that DG cannot
just go and retroactively do paperwork to fix this. Maybe time to get
am aviation lawyer involved. Of course if it turns out that DG can do
something and is just sitting on their hands it's a different matter,
but until somebody knows for sure...


Darryl

On Oct 17, 10:47*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Oct 17, 5:06*pm, NG wrote:



We imported a DG-505 Elan Orion built at the AMS Flight, d.o.o. (AMS)
factory in Slovenia in 2006. *It came with a Slovenian Certificate of
Airworthiness and an AMS data plate. *It was built under a German
Standard Airworthiness Certificate which designates AMS in Slovenia as
the manufacturer. *DG is the owner of the European Standard Flight
Certificate.

At the time of import the U.S. Standard Type Certificate designated
the DG factory in Germany as the only acceptable manufacturer making
no mention of AMS in Slovenia. *To correct this situation the Small
Aircraft Directorate at the FAA for gliders rewrote the type
certificate to make AMS in Slovenia an acceptable manufacturer. *This
in part allowed the glider to receive a U.S. Standard Airworthiness
Certificate.

Also the glider did not have a German certificate of airworthiness but
only a Slovenian certificate of airworthiness. *AMS had not sent the
aircraft to Germany to receive a German certificate of airworthiness.
The FAA was initially demanding a German airworthiness certificate but
again the FAA directorate modified the U.S. certificate to make any
EASA (the new European Union aviation administration) member nation as
an acceptable supplier of an airworthiness certificate. *Because
Slovenia was on the cusp of being a member of EASA in 2006 (and now is
a full member) the designated airworthiness representative granted the
U.S. Standard Airworthiness Certificate.

Now 2 years later the FAA has told us its own actions were a mistake
and is about to revoke the standard airworthiness certificate if we do
not relinquish it freely. *The FAA is saying that the changes to the
U.S. certificate that were made by the directorate in Kansas City were
in error. * They are indicating that they did not realize that Elan
aircraft were not built in Germany and because the FAA has no
bilateral agreement (BASA) with Slovenia the certificate must be
relinquished.

Can the FAA do this at this late date? *DG and AMS have not been
willing to resolve this issue and have basically said that the only
alternative is for us to ship the aircraft back to Germany and have
the aircraft reissued at our own expense.

Thanks for any help!
N505LG

Appear to be four in the US. *You might also advise the FAA
Governmental Liaison Committee if you haven't already done so.

Frank Whiteley

There are more than four, there are over 20 DG-500/DG-505/DG-500M etc.
variants in the USA and they list different permutations of
manufactures. The FAA database for these gliders looks a bit of a mess
if you try to match dates/claimed manufacturers etc.

Darryl

The glider was purchased for private use but keeping the standard
certification would be paramount to its resale value. This was
recognized by the small aircraft directorate at the FAA in Kansas City
and is part of the reason that the U.S. type certificate was modified
in 2006 (see above). As an experimental the aircraft cannot be used
for commercial rides. When giving rides for fun and not for pay as we
always do we will have to announce to the passenger that this is an
experimental and as such does not have the safety of a standard
certified aircraft. We will be limited to a 300 mile range of usual
activity. We cannot fly over populated areas (Phoenix suburbs).
Without requesting and receiving written permission from the FAA we
will not be able to fly outside of the 300 mile radius of a stated
home base in a usual manner.

The aircraft was purchased from AMS directly. At the time of the
initial certification problems we contacted DG and purchased a 2 way
ticket for a DG/German FAA inspector to come to the U.S. to inspect
and place a German airworthiness certificate on the aircraft. We paid
a special German FAA (LBA) fee for after factory inspection, bought
the airline ticket, and 4 days hotel fees. When the FAA decided to
grant the standard certificate without jumping through this hoop we
called off the inspector but lost all this money since none of it was
refundable (expedia ticket and reservations).

Now Mr. Dirks and Mr. Weber at DG have stated that the only way to fix
the problem is to send the aircraft back to Germany apparently for re-
issue. We feel that the AMS and DG oversight to distribute the
aircraft with proper paperwork to meet standard certification as
agreed upon in the purchase deal, and the flip flopping of the FAA 2
years after the fact has placed an undo burden on us as buyers.

On Oct 18, 1:03*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Oct 17, 10:47*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:



On Oct 17, 5:06*pm, NG wrote:

We imported a DG-505 Elan Orion built at the AMS Flight, d.o.o. (AMS)
factory in Slovenia in 2006. *It came with a Slovenian Certificate of
Airworthiness and an AMS data plate. *It was built under a German
Standard Airworthiness Certificate which designates AMS in Slovenia as
the manufacturer. *DG is the owner of the European Standard Flight
Certificate.

At the time of import the U.S. Standard Type Certificate designated
the DG factory in Germany as the only acceptable manufacturer making
no mention of AMS in Slovenia. *To correct this situation the Small
Aircraft Directorate at the FAA for gliders rewrote the type
certificate to make AMS in Slovenia an acceptable manufacturer. *This
in part allowed the glider to receive a U.S. Standard Airworthiness
Certificate.

Also the glider did not have a German certificate of airworthiness but
only a Slovenian certificate of airworthiness. *AMS had not sent the
aircraft to Germany to receive a German certificate of airworthiness.
The FAA was initially demanding a German airworthiness certificate but
again the FAA directorate modified the U.S. certificate to make any
EASA (the new European Union aviation administration) member nation as
an acceptable supplier of an airworthiness certificate. *Because
Slovenia was on the cusp of being a member of EASA in 2006 (and now is
a full member) the designated airworthiness representative granted the
U.S. Standard Airworthiness Certificate.

Now 2 years later the FAA has told us its own actions were a mistake
and is about to revoke the standard airworthiness certificate if we do
not relinquish it freely. *The FAA is saying that the changes to the
U.S. certificate that were made by the directorate in Kansas City were
in error. * They are indicating that they did not realize that Elan
aircraft were not built in Germany and because the FAA has no
bilateral agreement (BASA) with Slovenia the certificate must be
relinquished.

Can the FAA do this at this late date? *DG and AMS have not been
willing to resolve this issue and have basically said that the only
alternative is for us to ship the aircraft back to Germany and have
the aircraft reissued at our own expense.

Thanks for any help!
N505LG

Appear to be four in the US. *You might also advise the FAA
Governmental Liaison Committee if you haven't already done so.

Frank Whiteley

There are more than four, there are over 20 DG-500/DG-505/DG-500M etc.
variants in the USA and they list different permutations of
manufactures. The FAA database for these gliders looks a bit of a mess
if you try to match dates/claimed manufacturers etc.

Darryl

FWIW, there are only four (DG505KK, DG505KM, DG505LG, and DG505PB)
with the same aircraft code as AMS production, 3802559, all DG 505's
AKA DG500 Elan Orion. I've been in contact with a club that has
another. They had been called and had to go over their paperwork as
the FAA had said one entered the US without the German inspection.
Looks like they were looking for indications of other problems.
Whether it was FAA CYA...who knows? If they called about other DG5XX
variants, then it sounds like findings from an internal audit. Too
bad, as the next NG post indicates they may have lost an opportunity
to correct it with a post import German inspection, or not, as the
factory is requesting return for re-issue. AOPA may know of
precedents.

Frank