Pop-up IFR from Clearance Delivery

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"John Clonts" wrote in message
news

Not the way I read it:

"Can Clearance Delivery (through an RCO on the ground) give a pop-up
IFR instead of Approach? So far I have found that they ask me to call
Approach when airborne, or file with FSS."


How can you read "...ask me to call Approach when airborne..." to mean on
the ground?


As Andrew clarified elsewhere, what he meant might have been more clear if
he had written:

.... So far I have found that they request "call approach once airborne"...

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

"Newps" wrote in message
news:ODp7c.55613$_w.884010@attbi_s53...


John Clonts wrote:


When you call ATC to get a clearance...

...if you're in the air and you've filed through FSS, when you call ATC,
its
not a pop-up.

You're picking nits. Some would call that a pop up some wouldn't.


...if you're not in the air and not already filed through FSS, it's not
considered a "pop-up"? Is there a different name you call it?

Yeah, a pain in the ass.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

Ok, I'd like to learn something from this...

When you call ATC to get a clearance...

...if you're in the air and you've filed through FSS, when you call ATC,
its
not a pop-up.
...if you're in the air but not already filed through FSS, it's
considered
a
"pop-up"
...if you're not in the air and not already filed through FSS, it's not
considered a "pop-up"? Is there a different name you call it?

I see that "pop-up" is not in the PC/G. I assume that it's also not
defined
in 7110. That being the case we're talking about an informal term
anyway.
I'm just curious (and surprised) that a call from the ramp to CD for an
IFR
clearance (not already on file) is NOT considered by controllers a
"pop-up".


"Pop-up" is not defined anywhere. It's my observation, from context, that
most pilots consider a pop-up to be any airborne pickup of an IFR
clearance.
I share that opinion.


Good enough!

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"John Clonts" wrote in message
news

Not the way I read it:

"Can Clearance Delivery (through an RCO on the ground) give a pop-up
IFR instead of Approach? So far I have found that they ask me to call
Approach when airborne, or file with FSS."


How can you read "...ask me to call Approach when airborne..." to mean on
the ground?



He's on the ground. CD says to him: "...contact approach when airborne..."

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

He's on the ground. CD says to him: "...contact approach
when airborne..."


Interesting. A clearance delivery position that won't deliver a clearance
to an aircraft on the ground.

It may not be a clearance delivery position. Here at FCI, the RCO puts us
in contact with a Potomac Tracon controller, not the class C Richmond CD
controller located 11 miles away. Its the same guy who answers our calls on
the departure frequency is the same guy answering the RCO for getting
clearances.

Of course it could be an incredible coincidence, with the CD controller
rotating from his CD position at the Richmond tower to the Tracon, 75 miles
away, during my run-up.

Brad Z.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

He's on the ground. CD says to him: "...contact approach
when airborne..."


Interesting. A clearance delivery position that won't deliver a clearance
to an aircraft on the ground.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

He's on the ground. CD says to him: "...contact approach
when airborne..."


Interesting. A clearance delivery position that won't deliver a clearance
to an aircraft on the ground.



Indeed. To Andrew it was interesting enough to prompt him to post a usenet
question about it!

The frequency I called was the definitely the clearance delivery
frequency for the uncontrolled field, not the approach control
frequency. However, now that you mention it, it seems quite possible
that the approach controller could have been the guy handling the CD
RCO frequency. However, that does not explain the strangeness of this
situation. Had he asked me to call FSS and left it at that, I would
not have considered that strange. But he asked me to call FSS OR call
approach once airborne, which implied that in order to give a
clearance on the ground I would have to file with FSS, but an airborne
clearance could be had without filing with FSS.

I understand the confusion over the phrase 'pop-up' so I will avoid
using that.






"Brad Z" wrote in message news:Pdr7c.55839$_w.891264@attbi_s53...
It may not be a clearance delivery position. Here at FCI, the RCO puts us
in contact with a Potomac Tracon controller, not the class C Richmond CD
controller located 11 miles away. Its the same guy who answers our calls on
the departure frequency is the same guy answering the RCO for getting
clearances.

Of course it could be an incredible coincidence, with the CD controller
rotating from his CD position at the Richmond tower to the Tracon, 75 miles
away, during my run-up.

Brad Z.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

He's on the ground. CD says to him: "...contact approach
when airborne..."


Interesting. A clearance delivery position that won't deliver a clearance
to an aircraft on the ground.

In article ,
(Andrew Sarangan) wrote:

The frequency I called was the definitely the clearance delivery
frequency for the uncontrolled field, not the approach control
frequency. However, now that you mention it, it seems quite possible
that the approach controller could have been the guy handling the CD
RCO frequency. However, that does not explain the strangeness of this
situation. Had he asked me to call FSS and left it at that, I would
not have considered that strange. But he asked me to call FSS OR call
approach once airborne, which implied that in order to give a
clearance on the ground I would have to file with FSS, but an airborne
clearance could be had without filing with FSS.

Let me respond to this in two parts.

First, the regulatory issue. The FARs (91.something or other) say that
UNLESS OTHERWISE AUTHORIZED BY ATC, you need to file a flight plan to
get an IFR clearance. Giving a pop-up is authorization, but the
controller doesn't have to do it. So, he's certainly within his rights
to refuse to issue you an IFR clearance if you havn't filed with FSS
first.

Now, on to reality. We all know that pop-ups get issued all the time,
so clearly the authorization we're talking about above gets done quite
routinely. So routinely, in fact, that many pilots don't even realize
it's something special.

Now, the question is, why is he willing to "otherwise authorize" you in
the air, but not on the ground? If he issues you a clearance (well,
technically, a release) on the ground at a non-towered field, he's got
to reserve a pretty big hunk of airspace for you until he gets you in
radar contact. If you ask for a popup in the air, he can get you radar
identified before he issues you your clearance, so the impact to his
traffic flow is a lot smaller. From his point of view, an in-air pop-up
is easier on his.

So, it sounds like you've got a little bit of one-sided horse trading
going on here. What the controller is really saying is, "If you do me a
favor by letting me get radar contact before issuing your clearance,
I'll do you a favor by not making you talk to FSS".

From your point of view, the question you need to ask yourself is, "How
likely is it that I can provide my own visual separation from terrain
and other traffic and maintain legal VFR until I'm in radio and radar
contact?". If you're comfortable with the answer, then go ahead and
take the deal the controller is offering. If you don't think you can do
it, then you've got to do things the official way and talk to FSS.

Of course, if you're worried about terrain, there's nothing that
prevents you from flying the IFR DP on your own. Yo don't need a
clearance to do that. But, yes, I understand that that's sort of
peripheral to your original question.

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
om...
The frequency I called was the definitely the clearance delivery
frequency

As is the case at FCI. The controller is working both the approach
frequency and the CD RCO. You can hear him transmitting on both
frequencies.

for the uncontrolled field, not the approach control
frequency. However, now that you mention it, it seems quite possible
that the approach controller could have been the guy handling the CD
RCO frequency. However, that does not explain the strangeness of this
situation. Had he asked me to call FSS and left it at that, I would
not have considered that strange. But he asked me to call FSS OR call
approach once airborne, which implied that in order to give a
clearance on the ground I would have to file with FSS, but an airborne
clearance could be had without filing with FSS.

Could be a workload issue, or perhaps it's his *principle*. In his mind,
you're on the ground so there is no good reason you'd need to tie up his
radio time, off his approach control frequency, to get you in the system
while you're safe on the ground. Some controllers are more hard-ass about
this than others.


I understand the confusion over the phrase 'pop-up' so I will avoid
using that.






"Brad Z" wrote in message
news:Pdr7c.55839$_w.891264@attbi_s53...
It may not be a clearance delivery position. Here at FCI, the RCO puts
us
in contact with a Potomac Tracon controller, not the class C Richmond CD
controller located 11 miles away. Its the same guy who answers our
calls on
the departure frequency is the same guy answering the RCO for getting
clearances.

Of course it could be an incredible coincidence, with the CD controller
rotating from his CD position at the Richmond tower to the Tracon, 75
miles
away, during my run-up.

Brad Z.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

He's on the ground. CD says to him: "...contact approach
when airborne..."


Interesting. A clearance delivery position that won't deliver a
clearance
to an aircraft on the ground.