Wing Extensions

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:43:58 GMT, Dave Hyde wrote:

Roger Halstead wrote:

I guess you'd need some sort of plastic overlay for the airspeed
indicator to remind you of the new critial speeds.

They don't change all that much. You leave them set for the shorter
wing. ...

I think someone else said this too, and I find it confusing. If they
don't change that much, why have the extensions? Just for more fuel?

They can be used for additional fuel and they create a higher aspect
ratio for greater speed at altitude than the short wing.. They also
offer a bit more climb, and a bit slower landing.

OTOH although the landing is slower, fowler flaps and the extended
wing only lower the landing speed a few MPH

The airpseed indicator could certainly be marked that way
and inspectors may approve it, but it seems like the long-wing version
would be more critical for safety numbers. Vne would likely be lower

It's not. That depends more on other factors

for the long wing(*), and maneuvering speed will be lower as well,

It is by a little

assuming the extensions add any lift at all.

They do.

Stall speed for *both* wings is important.

Stall with the longer wing is only a couple MPH slower.

(*) Assuming it's flutter that sets Vne, which is a
big assumption.

Kinda, sorta...flutter is one. Various portions of the structure are
another. As

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

Dave 'corner speed' Hyde

(Bob Kuykendall) wrote in message
snip
My HP-24 project is slated to have a standard 15 meter span, with
extensions to 18 meter, including aileron extensions. The gross
weights will be different, but the speeds will be pretty much the
same.

Bob K.


As Bob knows, my Nimbus 3 has 22.9m, 24.5m and 25.5m tips for the
various wing span I wish to fly with. Choice is driven by weather
(lift) conditions and desired wing loading for the day. I also have
positive and negative flaps - as do all or most flapped sailplanes. We
also put hundreds of pounds of water in our wings on good days, but
that would not be recommended for powered aircraft ;-).

Are there any powered aircraft out there with negative flap positions
for faster cruising/lower drag?

There was a sailplane built some years ago with a telescoping wing - I
recall it worked OK, but was not successfull.

Jim

(Bob Kuykendall) wrote in message
snip
My HP-24 project is slated to have a standard 15 meter span, with
extensions to 18 meter, including aileron extensions. The gross
weights will be different, but the speeds will be pretty much the
same.

Bob K.


As Bob knows, my Nimbus 3 has 22.9m, 24.5m and 25.5m tips for the
various wing span I wish to fly with. Choice is driven by weather
(lift) conditions and desired wing loading for the day. I also have
positive and negative flaps - as do all or most flapped sailplanes. We
also put hundreds of pounds of water in our wings on good days, but
that would not be recommended for powered aircraft ;-).

Are there any powered aircraft out there with negative flap positions
for faster cruising/lower drag?

There was a sailplane built some years ago with a telescoping wing - I
recall it worked OK, but was not successfull.

Jim

"Jim Phoenix" wrote in message
om...
(Bob Kuykendall) wrote in message
snip
My HP-24 project is slated to have a standard 15 meter span, with
extensions to 18 meter, including aileron extensions. The gross
weights will be different, but the speeds will be pretty much the
same.

Bob K.


As Bob knows, my Nimbus 3 has 22.9m, 24.5m and 25.5m tips for the
various wing span I wish to fly with. Choice is driven by weather
(lift) conditions and desired wing loading for the day. I also have
positive and negative flaps - as do all or most flapped sailplanes. We
also put hundreds of pounds of water in our wings on good days, but
that would not be recommended for powered aircraft ;-).

Are there any powered aircraft out there with negative flap positions
for faster cruising/lower drag?

There was a sailplane built some years ago with a telescoping wing - I
recall it worked OK, but was not successfull.

Jim

One of the Maule variants used 10 degree negative flap for a little extra
cruise speed.

I seem to recall that flapped wings should have an airfoil selected for
negative flap for that option to be really useful. Still, it's a cheap way
to get a little more cruise speed.

Wing extensions could be a seasonal change to cope with the much higher
density altitudes in summer.

Bill Daniels

Funny you should bring this up. I've been considering a series of very
narrow (high aspect) winglets which would pivot at their roots and be
attached to the end of the wing. These could be arranged to work
together as a very high lift arrangement and be foldable on-the-fly. A
lot like the wingtip feathers of large raptors. Aft winglets might be
shorter than fwd ones, and each "feather" might be only 2-3" in chord.

Jay wrote:
Seems like it might be useful to have removable wing extensions for an
experimental. There are times when you want a fast airplane for cross
country and you can stand a long runway for the high TO/landing speeds
and then there are other times you want the low speed handling for
short field, etc. Flaps do this to some degree depending on how
exotic you want to get and have the advantage of being adjustable in
flight but the wing extensions would appear to extend the flight
envelope (on separate flights) beyond what can be done with typical
flap configurations.

A solid composite structure, perhaps 2 feet on each side that plugs
into the main spar(s) would do nicely to allow you to have both a high
speed clipped wing plane (when removed) and a long wing high lift
plane, of course not at the same time. The further out you go on the
wing the less the loads are so these wouldn't have to be built up as
strong as other parts.

They could be made with no control surfaces or other moving parts.
You could even select a different airfoil for that section if you
wanted. No problem plugging composite extensions into an aluminum
main wing. Of course the main short wing would have to be built to
allow access to the main spar(s). A hollow rectangular cross section
spar could accept an insert to mate with removable extensions.

I guess you'd need some sort of plastic overlay for the airspeed
indicator to remind you of the new critial speeds.

Anyone seen anything like this?

Dave Hyde wrote:
Roger Halstead wrote:


The airpseed indicator could certainly be marked that way
and inspectors may approve it, but it seems like the long-wing version
would be more critical for safety numbers. Vne would likely be lower
for the long wing(*), and maneuvering speed will be lower as well,
assuming the extensions add any lift at all. Stall speed for *both*
wings is important.


Forget "stall speeds." A given airfoil stalls at a given AOA. Period.
Loading, airspeed, aspect ratio have nothing to do with it.

Get an AOA indicator and fly that.

On 24 Jul 2003 08:20 PM, Grieg Pedersen, Information Systems Engineer
posted the following:


Jim Phoenix wrote:
(Bob Kuykendall) wrote in message

Are there any powered aircraft out there with negative flap positions
for faster cruising/lower drag?

Several. the Seawind comes to mind as one that uses a "reflex"
position for cruise.

Initial reports indicate that the Barrows Bearhawk can get a lot of
benefit from reflexing the flaps slightly at cruise.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/

Bob, Bob, Bob,

You can make a AOA indicator for $50 and a little bit of time to machine
a dual purpose pitot - AOA pylon for the end of your wing.

I do agree that many gauges on the dashes of many kitbuilts are
worth a great deal less than the asking price, but a stall warning
system is worth its weight in gold!!! Just ask the gentleman that
"made it" to Oshkosh in a Glasair got stuck behind a cub on final,
did "s" turns until he fell out of the sky 400 ft short of the runway.
DEAD.

Another Information System Engineer, but without a gold lined wallet.
--
Bart D. Hull

Tempe, Arizona

Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/engine.html for my Subaru Engine
Conversion
Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/fuselage.html for Tango II I'm
building.

Barnyard BOb -- wrote:
"Grieg Pedersen, Information Systems Engineer"
wrote:



The airpseed indicator could certainly be marked that way
and inspectors may approve it, but it seems like the long-wing version
would be more critical for safety numbers. Vne would likely be lower
for the long wing(*), and maneuvering speed will be lower as well,
assuming the extensions add any lift at all. Stall speed for *both*
wings is important.


Forget "stall speeds." A given airfoil stalls at a given AOA. Period.
Loading, airspeed, aspect ratio have nothing to do with it.

Get an AOA indicator and fly that.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A rather amusing, although assinine approach....
Killing a bug with an extravagant $ledge hammer.

Is this what pompous information system injun-eers
are good at?


Barnyard BOb -- limited resources

Bob, Bob, Bob,

You can make a AOA indicator for $50 and a little bit of time to machine
a dual purpose pitot - AOA pylon for the end of your wing.

I do agree that many gauges on the dashes of many kitbuilts are
worth a great deal less than the asking price, but a stall warning
system is worth its weight in gold!!! Just ask the gentleman that
"made it" to Oshkosh in a Glasair got stuck behind a cub on final,
did "s" turns until he fell out of the sky 400 ft short of the runway.
DEAD.

Another Information System Engineer, but without a gold lined wallet.
--
Bart D. Hull
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jezus...
Just admit you know not how to fly small GA aircraft.
You sound like one of the typical dumb**** cable infomercials.

Gimmee a break and quit insulting my meager intelligence.
Glasairs and Cubs will never mix and starring at a homebrew
AOA on a wingtip instead of where one is going while attempting
to navigate the world's busiest airport at rush hour is...
extremely poor form in my 50 year old book of competent piloting.

You can X, Y, Z or S 'til hell freezes over, but ....
Not even a $5000 AOA indicator can substitute for good judgment
and save your dumb ass when you should be on final at 100 mph
instead of attempting to match wits with a 40 mph Cub....
if what you say has even a grain of truth in it.

I've successfully flown thousands of hours on the ragged edge
of stall crop dusting and I attribute that more to being competent
at stall recognition than some $50 huckster claim of a life saving
device for dummies.

FWIW..
I've been hearing and reading about cheapy AOA indicators
for the better part of 50 years. If they were worth a hoot, you or
somebody would be selling them for $100 and getting rich....
or getting your ass sued into oblivion.

P.S.
Have you installed the $50 AOA on your, yet to fly, Tango?
BE HONEST or you will crash and burn behind a Piper Cub.

P.S.S.
What is it with you Information System Engineers that make
you brag about your credentials in a pilot oriented community?
From what I have seen in the last 24 hours....
It's hardly an asset when garbage in = garbage out.


Barnyard BOb - please don't 'ax' me to talk to dead men

Since there seems to be a thought that we all need an AOA indicator, I have
missed something. Are there planes that give no indication of an impending
stall? Isn't a large part of flight training concentrated on recognizing
that impending stall? The people with whom I have flown who regularly fly
the ragged edge of the bottom end of the airspeed ignore the stall warning
horn and just fly the plane. That isn't flying by the seat of one's pants,
its understanding the what the normally present indicators are telling you.
I will have to agree that no one survives all those years crop dusting by
looking at some kind of gauge. It is flying skill and knowledge. On a much
smaller scale it's like getting to the point as a student when you realize
you are flying approach and discovering you're not having to watch the
airspeed indicator gauge...and you're squeaking it on.

Bruce A. Frank


"Barnyard BOb --" wrote in message
...


Bob, Bob, Bob,

You can make a AOA indicator for $50 and a little bit of time to machine
a dual purpose pitot - AOA pylon for the end of your wing.

I do agree that many gauges on the dashes of many kitbuilts are
worth a great deal less than the asking price, but a stall warning
system is worth its weight in gold!!! Just ask the gentleman that
"made it" to Oshkosh in a Glasair got stuck behind a cub on final,
did "s" turns until he fell out of the sky 400 ft short of the runway.
DEAD.

Another Information System Engineer, but without a gold lined wallet.
--
Bart D. Hull
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jezus...
Just admit you know not how to fly small GA aircraft.
You sound like one of the typical dumb**** cable infomercials.

Gimmee a break and quit insulting my meager intelligence.
Glasairs and Cubs will never mix and starring at a homebrew
AOA on a wingtip instead of where one is going while attempting
to navigate the world's busiest airport at rush hour is...
extremely poor form in my 50 year old book of competent piloting.

You can X, Y, Z or S 'til hell freezes over, but ....
Not even a $5000 AOA indicator can substitute for good judgment
and save your dumb ass when you should be on final at 100 mph
instead of attempting to match wits with a 40 mph Cub....
if what you say has even a grain of truth in it.

I've successfully flown thousands of hours on the ragged edge
of stall crop dusting and I attribute that more to being competent
at stall recognition than some $50 huckster claim of a life saving
device for dummies.

FWIW..
I've been hearing and reading about cheapy AOA indicators
for the better part of 50 years. If they were worth a hoot, you or
somebody would be selling them for $100 and getting rich....
or getting your ass sued into oblivion.

P.S.
Have you installed the $50 AOA on your, yet to fly, Tango?
BE HONEST or you will crash and burn behind a Piper Cub.

P.S.S.
What is it with you Information System Engineers that make
you brag about your credentials in a pilot oriented community?
From what I have seen in the last 24 hours....
It's hardly an asset when garbage in = garbage out.


Barnyard BOb - please don't 'ax' me to talk to dead men