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#61
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Missing flight plans
On 08/05/06 08:45, Anno v. Heimburg wrote:
Mark Hansen wrote: So, you're answer is "no". Got it. Thanks, I thought I responded to this yesterday, but I didn't see it so I'm trying again... Actually, had you invested 5 minutes, you would have found: "10-2-5. EMERGENCY SITUATIONS Consider that an aircraft emergency exists and inform the RCC or ARTCC and alert the appropriate DF facility when: [...] b. There is unexpected loss of radar contact and radio communications with any IFR or VFR aircraft. [..]" http://www.faa.gov/ATPubs/ATC/Chp10/atc1002.html#10-2-5 Anno. The assertion I was questioning was with regard to loss of communications only, not communications *and* radar. Your quote above seems to cover loss of both communications *and* radar. What am I missing? -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
#62
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Missing flight plans
Mark Hansen wrote:
I thought I responded to this yesterday, but I didn't see it so I'm trying again... FWIW, I see both of them. The assertion I was questioning was with regard to loss of communications only, not communications *and* radar. Your quote above seems to cover loss of both communications *and* radar. Your post that started this subthread went like this: | Actually, ATC is not required to maintain communications with you, and | if you suddenly disappear, they may assume you just went off-frequency and | shut off your transponder (or had a power failure, etc.). I don't see why | they would begin a search and rescue in this case. .... which, as I read it, actually did imply a loss of both radar and com contact ("you just went off-frequency *and* shut off your transponder", emphasis added). You seem to have changed your point from "suddenly disappering" to "loss of only com", and I seem to have missed that transition. Actually, it would make no sense to assume an emergency if only comm contact is lost. They still have you on the radar, so you didn't crash, and you simply might have gone off-frequeny or, at worst, gone NORDO. |
#63
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Missing flight plans
Michelle wrote:
In any case, let's hear it from the real pros (the people that get paid to fly): How often do you conduct a flight without a flight plan? The people who get paid to fly generally are required to fly IFR, so of course they file flight plans. That argument makes no sense. |
#64
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Missing flight plans
On 08/06/06 11:18, Anno v. Heimburg wrote:
Mark Hansen wrote: I thought I responded to this yesterday, but I didn't see it so I'm trying again... FWIW, I see both of them. The assertion I was questioning was with regard to loss of communications only, not communications *and* radar. Your quote above seems to cover loss of both communications *and* radar. Your post that started this subthread went like this: | Actually, ATC is not required to maintain communications with you, and | if you suddenly disappear, they may assume you just went off-frequency and | shut off your transponder (or had a power failure, etc.). I don't see why | they would begin a search and rescue in this case. ... which, as I read it, actually did imply a loss of both radar and com contact ("you just went off-frequency *and* shut off your transponder", emphasis added). You seem to have changed your point from "suddenly disappering" to "loss of only com", and I seem to have missed that transition. I was responding to Newps' assertion: Yes, if the loss of comm or radar was unexpected. Look back up the thread... It was about 5 or 6 posts up. Actually, it would make no sense to assume an emergency if only comm contact is lost. That was the point I was trying to make. Sorry it wasn't clear. They still have you on the radar, so you didn't crash, and you simply might have gone off-frequeny or, at worst, gone NORDO. -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
#65
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Missing flight plans
-----Original Message----- From: Emily ] Posted At: Thursday, August 03, 2006 6:49 PM Posted To: rec.aviation.piloting Conversation: Missing flight plans Subject: Missing flight plans Jim Carter wrote: Three weeks ago, on a Saturday morning we had a plan on file, opened with Jonesboro Radio and went trucking off merrily across the countryside. We arrived at our destination about 2.5 later and called to cancel - the plan was never opened. Kind of scary... VFR or IFR? VFR - Unless something has changed, isn't an IFR plan is automagically opened when you are turned over to departure or upon your first airborne check-in with ATC? |
#66
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Missing flight plans
"Mark Hansen" wrote in message ... On 08/04/06 16:33, Newps wrote: Mark Hansen wrote: Just to clarify, what I mean is can you show the regulation which states that ATC is required to begin search and rescue operations if they lose radio contact with an airplane that was on flight following. Absolutely. Knock yourself out. http://www.faa.gov/ATPubs/ATC/index.htm So, you're answer is "no". Got it. Thanks, I think B will be of interest. 10-2-5. EMERGENCY SITUATIONS Consider that an aircraft emergency exists and inform the RCC or ARTCC and alert the appropriate DF facility when: NOTE- 1. USAF facilities are only required to notify the ARTCC. 2. The requirement to alert DF facilities may be deleted if radar contact will be maintained throughout the duration of the emergency. a. An emergency is declared by either: 1. The pilot. 2. Facility personnel. 3. Officials responsible for the operation of the aircraft. b. There is unexpected loss of radar contact and radio communications with any IFR or VFR aircraft. c. Reports indicate it has made a forced landing, is about to do so, or its operating efficiency is so impaired that a forced landing will be necessary. d. Reports indicate the crew has abandoned the aircraft or is about to do so. e. An emergency radar beacon response is received. NOTE- EN ROUTE. During Stage A operation, Code 7700 causes EMRG to blink in field E of the data block. f. Intercept or escort aircraft services are required. g. The need for ground rescue appears likely. h. An Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) signal is heard or reported. REFERENCE- FAAO 7110.65, Providing Assistance, Para 10-1-3. FAAO 7110.65, Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) Signals, Para 10-2-10. |
#67
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Missing flight plans
On 08/07/06 06:13, Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
"Mark Hansen" wrote in message ... On 08/04/06 16:33, Newps wrote: Mark Hansen wrote: Just to clarify, what I mean is can you show the regulation which states that ATC is required to begin search and rescue operations if they lose radio contact with an airplane that was on flight following. Absolutely. Knock yourself out. http://www.faa.gov/ATPubs/ATC/index.htm So, you're answer is "no". Got it. Thanks, I think B will be of interest. But the assertion I was questioning was with regard to the loss of radio communications only. Not coms *and* radar. Paragraph 'B' you quote (below) is for the loss of *both* comms *and* radar contact. 10-2-5. EMERGENCY SITUATIONS Consider that an aircraft emergency exists and inform the RCC or ARTCC and alert the appropriate DF facility when: NOTE- 1. USAF facilities are only required to notify the ARTCC. 2. The requirement to alert DF facilities may be deleted if radar contact will be maintained throughout the duration of the emergency. a. An emergency is declared by either: 1. The pilot. 2. Facility personnel. 3. Officials responsible for the operation of the aircraft. b. There is unexpected loss of radar contact and radio communications with any IFR or VFR aircraft. c. Reports indicate it has made a forced landing, is about to do so, or its operating efficiency is so impaired that a forced landing will be necessary. d. Reports indicate the crew has abandoned the aircraft or is about to do so. e. An emergency radar beacon response is received. NOTE- EN ROUTE. During Stage A operation, Code 7700 causes EMRG to blink in field E of the data block. f. Intercept or escort aircraft services are required. g. The need for ground rescue appears likely. h. An Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) signal is heard or reported. REFERENCE- FAAO 7110.65, Providing Assistance, Para 10-1-3. FAAO 7110.65, Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) Signals, Para 10-2-10. -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
#68
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Missing flight plans
Mark Hansen writes:
Actually, ATC is not required to maintain communications with you, and if you suddenly disappear, they may assume you just went off- frequency and shut off your transponder (or had a power failure, etc.). I don't see why they would begin a search and rescue in this case. And yet they do. What's up with that? --kyler |
#69
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Missing flight plans
Kyler Laird wrote:
Mark Hansen writes: Actually, ATC is not required to maintain communications with you, and if you suddenly disappear, they may assume you just went off- frequency and shut off your transponder (or had a power failure, etc.). I don't see why they would begin a search and rescue in this case. And yet they do. Not always. |
#70
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Missing flight plans
"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net wrote:
[...] 10-2-5. EMERGENCY SITUATIONS [...] b. There is unexpected loss of radar contact and radio communications with any IFR or VFR aircraft. [...] I think I'm having a déjà-vu. Check Msg-Id and Mark's answer to it. But I'm glad I'm not the only one who got lost in the course of this conversation. Anno. |
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