EA-18G vs ES-3

"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:9f6%b.408640$na.796343@attbi_s04...
"fudog50" wrote...
You really are out of the loop R.David.

1.) The Prowler was never a a SIGINT/ELINT platform and never
will be, nor will the "Growler".

Maybe you are the one out of the loop... The Prowler has significant
SIGINT/ELINT capabilities, even though it is not a "dedicated" SIGINT
platform.
When I was flying Standard ARM equipped A-6s in the early 80s, we worked
closely
with the Prowlers to develop tactical capabilities in those regimes. Even
the
AWG-21 system in the A-6 had some SIGINT/ELINT capability (better with the
missile seeker)...

The Prowler's SIGINT capability is nil. There is almost no analysis
capabilty nor does there need to be. Sending info to a *ARM isn't the same
thing as ELINT/SIGINT. Even the shipboard system I worked wasn't considered
a full blown SIGINT/ELINT system without a few add on's and even then it
wasn't a preferred platform. To really do SIGINT/ELINT, you need receivers
that are very sensitive and can measure incredibly minute differences in
signals. The ALQ-99 and other EW platforms can pick out signals but they
don't need the razor accuracy of a ELINT receiver. Take a look at the
equipment that was in the ES-3 and look at the ALQ-99, they are completely
different systems. When the Navy gave up the ES-3, they gave up tactical
airborne ELINT.

"R. David Steele" wrote in message
...
How is the EA-18G being used, or at least planned for?

It's planned to be a EA-6B replacement, that is, stand off jamming. What
amazes me is they plan to stick on the same ALQ-99 system that is in dire
need of replacement.

the P-3 ASW and the EP-3 SIGINT/ELINT platforms are still our
best lines of "defense", it is jut that they are not tactical
platforms that can go with the fleet. I wonder if the V-22,
should it ever become operational, will be able to function well
as a refueling platform and in the SIGINT/ELINT (tactical)
mission?

I doubt it, the V-22 doesn't strike me as a very efficient platform for
SIGINT.

Brian wrote:
"R. David Steele" wrote in message
...
How is the EA-18G being used, or at least planned for?

It's planned to be a EA-6B replacement, that is, stand off jamming.

Also more stand-in escort jamming and SEAD/strike, though not as much as
originally planned, it looks like.

What amazes me is they plan to stick on the same ALQ-99 system that
is in dire need of replacement.

It's not all the same, by any means. AIUI, big chunks will be replaced; it
may be ALQ-99 in name only when they're done with it.

I wonder if the V-22,
should it ever become operational, will be able to function well
as a refueling platform and in the SIGINT/ELINT (tactical)
mission?

I doubt it, the V-22 doesn't strike me as a very efficient platform
for SIGINT.

Indeed. The SIGINT collection task looks to go to UAVs. (the Navy has
swong back and fromth on the MR-UAV and UCAV-N, with the difference being
the degree of loitering reconaisance the platform can do, as opposed to
out-and-back bomb dropping)

A KV-22 tanker is interesting. Depending on the numbers you look at, it may
have rather less gas to pass than a Super Hornet.


--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

"R. David Steele" wrote in message
...

|I doubt it, the V-22 doesn't strike me as a very efficient platform for
|SIGINT.

Actually it would do well for the Army and Marines. The Army
uses the EH-60A with the Quik-Fix (AN/ALQ-151) system. It is
their main SIGINT system and does countermeasures.

Quickfix is simply a horrible system which is why it's nearly (or is it
completely) gone. Army tactical sigint is still in the 80's.

The RC-12 Guardrail is another platform based on the Beechcraft
Super King Air (C-12). It is a SIGINT, ELINT and COMINT
platform.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell.../guardrail.htm

Thus I do feel that the V-22 could do either the Quickfix or
Guardrail missions for the Army.

Could it do it? Sure. Would it be efficient? Probably not. I can't imagine
it's a great platform for sticking all kinds of antennas on and doing orbits
for hours. If they want a manned platform, a EC-2 might be a good idea but
it looks like UAV's will do it couple with (hopefully) more support fom the
EP-3's.

"Thomas Schoene" wrote in message
ink.net...
Brian wrote:
What amazes me is they plan to stick on the same ALQ-99 system that
is in dire need of replacement.

It's not all the same, by any means. AIUI, big chunks will be replaced;
it
may be ALQ-99 in name only when they're done with it.

Let's hope so. AOC had a good article on the Growler and indicated it would
be on par with ICAP-III and have a totally new interface. I still think they
need a better jam section.

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 01:37:20 GMT, R. David Steele
wrote:

How is the EA-18G being used, or at least planned for?

As a replacement for the EA-6B - a jammer.

wonder if the V-22,
should it ever become operational, will be able to function well
as a refueling platform and in the SIGINT/ELINT (tactical)
mission?

I can't see why you would want it for either role. It's not even
remotely the right type of platform.

--
Andrew Toppan --- --- "I speak only for myself"
"Haze Gray & Underway" - Naval History, DANFS, World Navies Today,
Photo Features, Military FAQs, and more - http://www.hazegray.org/

In article , R. David
Steele wrote:

| How is the EA-18G being used, or at least planned for?
|
|It's planned to be a EA-6B replacement, that is, stand off jamming. What
|amazes me is they plan to stick on the same ALQ-99 system that is in dire
|need of replacement.
|
| the P-3 ASW and the EP-3 SIGINT/ELINT platforms are still our
| best lines of "defense", it is jut that they are not tactical
| platforms that can go with the fleet. I wonder if the V-22,
| should it ever become operational, will be able to function well
| as a refueling platform and in the SIGINT/ELINT (tactical)
| mission?
|
|I doubt it, the V-22 doesn't strike me as a very efficient platform for
|SIGINT.

Actually it would do well for the Army and Marines. The Army
uses the EH-60A with the Quik-Fix (AN/ALQ-151) system. It is
their main SIGINT system and does countermeasures.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...aft/eh-60a.htm
also the advanced version
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...aft/eh-60l.htm

The RC-12 Guardrail is another platform based on the Beechcraft
Super King Air (C-12). It is a SIGINT, ELINT and COMINT
platform.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell.../guardrail.htm

Thus I do feel that the V-22 could do either the Quickfix or
Guardrail missions for the Army.


Probably so, but do understand they are different missions. Quick-Fix is
a reasonably autonomous platform.

Guardrail is a sensor and relay platform which uses a ground processing
facility; which can trasmit processed intelligence to supported units
via the Guardrail relay. Given there isn't a huge need for EW skill
aboard the Guardrail, it's especially attractive for UAV replacement.

"Brian" wrote...

The Prowler's SIGINT capability is nil. There is almost no analysis
capabilty nor does there need to be. Sending info to a *ARM isn't the same
thing as ELINT/SIGINT. Even the shipboard system I worked wasn't considered
a full blown SIGINT/ELINT system without a few add on's and even then it
wasn't a preferred platform. To really do SIGINT/ELINT, you need receivers
that are very sensitive and can measure incredibly minute differences in
signals. The ALQ-99 and other EW platforms can pick out signals but they
don't need the razor accuracy of a ELINT receiver. Take a look at the
equipment that was in the ES-3 and look at the ALQ-99, they are completely
different systems. When the Navy gave up the ES-3, they gave up tactical
airborne ELINT.

I never claimed that the Prowler had a capability equivalent to the ES-3, EP-3,
or EA-3. I firmly believe that such dedicated ESM systems are needed. However,
your counterclaim that the Prowler's SIGINT/ELINT capability is "nil" shows you
do not know the system's full capability, and/or you do not appreciate the time
sensitivity of tactical ESM.

You don't always need a "full blown" system or a "preferred platform."
Sometimes you only need a capable platform with an operator that knows what he's
doing. I've worked with more than a few EA-6B ECMOs who knew how to wring a few
extra data points out of the ALQ-99...

Once in a while, you only had to have a capable system and a lucky operator...
We were flying around one day with an AWG-21 and a STARM on board, and picked up
a signal that shouldn't have been where it was. Turned out to be a Bear coming
from an unexpected direction, and we were the first ones to detect it. Other
sensors picked it up well after we reported back to the ship...

Good one Chad! LOL

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:27:24 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

In article ,
Peter Kemp wrote:

It's the difference between - "oh, there's an SA-6 radar over there"
(OPELINT) and "What the hell's this signal? Better record the pulse
shape, prf and so on for analysis" (TECHELEINT).

Not to mention the much more common Direct Radiation Yoke Emission
Recording/Locating Intel, or DRYERLINT.

Exactly Brian, thanks.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:09:52 -0500, "Brian"
wrote:


"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:9f6%b.408640$na.796343@attbi_s04...
"fudog50" wrote...
You really are out of the loop R.David.

1.) The Prowler was never a a SIGINT/ELINT platform and never
will be, nor will the "Growler".

Maybe you are the one out of the loop... The Prowler has significant
SIGINT/ELINT capabilities, even though it is not a "dedicated" SIGINT
platform.
When I was flying Standard ARM equipped A-6s in the early 80s, we worked
closely
with the Prowlers to develop tactical capabilities in those regimes. Even
the
AWG-21 system in the A-6 had some SIGINT/ELINT capability (better with the
missile seeker)...

The Prowler's SIGINT capability is nil. There is almost no analysis
capabilty nor does there need to be. Sending info to a *ARM isn't the same
thing as ELINT/SIGINT. Even the shipboard system I worked wasn't considered
a full blown SIGINT/ELINT system without a few add on's and even then it
wasn't a preferred platform. To really do SIGINT/ELINT, you need receivers
that are very sensitive and can measure incredibly minute differences in
signals. The ALQ-99 and other EW platforms can pick out signals but they
don't need the razor accuracy of a ELINT receiver. Take a look at the
equipment that was in the ES-3 and look at the ALQ-99, they are completely
different systems. When the Navy gave up the ES-3, they gave up tactical
airborne ELINT.