Is it easier now?

On 27 Feb 2004 20:08:09 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Is it easier now?
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 2/27/04 11:50 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: 417v309d5onmk1m7rbjsbsuvhu

Then, I'd
have to say the US leadership was strong and the morale/patriotism of
the ground soldier was what made the military so powerful. It wasn't
blind obedience to incompetent leadership,

First you say the leadership was strong then you talk about incompetent
leadership. I think the leadership in WW II was outstanding, better than in
many wars that followed.

I said the leadership was strong. I said it WASN'T blind obedience to
incompetent leadership.

One of the key elements of American success in the air--all wars in
the air, not just WW II, has been the aggressiveness and the
initiative of the American aviators. That isn't lock-step blind
obedience.

Three out of
five who started a tour were shot down and killed or captured.

That is a 60% loss rate. Can you verify that?


Arthur Kramer

If you'll check the Appendix of When Thunder Rolled, you'll find a
listing of 101 F-105 losses (tail number and crew names by date)
during the period April/November 1966. That was from 3 squadrons at
Takhli (18 aircraft/squadron) and first two squadrons, then from July
onward, four squadrons at Korat. That's a loss of 110 % of the
assigned aircraft in six months. The names and dates come from "Roll
Call: Thud" and from Hobson's "Vietnam Air Losses." (dual sourcing.)

Newsweek magazine in August of '66 published the 1-in-65 missions
figure as part of a feature article on Major James Kasler, Korean War
ace who was active in F-105s from Takhli. Kasler was shot down shortly
thereafter and spent the next 6.5 years in captivity.

You might want to discuss the "momma's boy" comment with some of the
ex-cons. They would be happy to talk about courage, I'm sure.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On 27 Feb 2004 19:02:11 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Did military discipline become looser and more liberal since WWI?. Is
military life easier now than it was then?


Arthur Kramer

You ask a question, but then it appears that if the answer doesn't fit
your pre-disposition, you can't accept it. If you are asking about
discipline since WWI (not II) then quite clearly you would really be
asking about the French, British and Germans (plus Turks), since the
USA only spent a year and a half out of the four year war. Certainly
there was iron discipline then--witness the carnage of the trench
warfare. The museums and particularly the Ossuary at Verdun are
sobering testimony to the price to be paid by the discipline
footsoldier led by the aristocratic officer corps. I don't think
that's what you are talking about. You've always seemed much more
egalitarian than that.

But, maybe you meant WW II and simply typo'd the lost "I". Then, I'd
have to say the US leadership was strong and the morale/patriotism of
the ground soldier was what made the military so powerful. It wasn't
blind obedience to incompetent leadership, but rather a citizen army
of highly motivated individuals. Again, a more egalitarian army than
that which the Germans and Japanese fielded.

Have things changed in the intervening years? Absolutely. There is a
much more highly educated officer (and NCO corps) than in WW II. The
technology has advanced incredibly and the force multiplying potential
of modern weapons has made massed infantry charges largely obsolete.

Life is certainly easier in an all-volunteer force. A professional,
rather than conscript, military expects to get reasonable compensation
for service and the competition with the private sector means ritual
abuse of lower ranks can't be tolerated. Living conditions are much
better and reasonably should be. There's no need for open bay barracks
and communal latrines if you aren't dealing with a full national
mobilization.

Thank you. Best post on the subject yet.
We were trained to iron discipline and obedience to orders. The price of
paid
later for a sloppy momma's boy military is now well documented. Sadly.


Arthur Kramer

Sorry, Art, but here you go too far. You regularly talk about those
who've been and those who've not. I've been. We weren't sloppy and we
weren't "momma's boys". When I flew F-105s over N. Vietnam, the loss
rate was one per 65 missions--the tour was 100 missions. Three out of
five who started a tour were shot down and killed or captured.

When I returned in the F-4, I logged another 150 missions. That was
among a lot of guys on their second or even third combat tours. That's
250 total--how many did you say you got?

Today, we look at Desert Storm and the loss rate for fixed wing
aircraft in the campaign was 1 per 3500 missions. In Iraqi Freedom,
one fixed wing aircraft was lost in 11,600 sorties. Does that sound
lax, poorly trained, inefficient????

You'll get respect when you give it. And, you'll need to recognize
that while your war was hard and vicious, the business of combat is
always going to be brutal. When men go to war and "see the elephant"
they learn a lot about themselves and those around them. Don't demean
them and you'll find they won't snap back at you.

Bravo! I couldn't have said it better if I'd spent ten years trying. Pity we
can't bottle it or can it and sell it out of vending machines to high school
kids. The country'd be a lot better off if they consumed a little bit of that
instead of all those soft drinks that rot their teeth. (*-*)))

George Z.

We were trained to iron discipline and obedience to orders.

Excuse me, but is this supposed to be a reference to the USAAF in
WWII?

I know a retired British colonel who still says "ah, the American
salute" when he comments on young men with their hands in their
pockets.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Cub Driver" wrote

I know a retired British colonel who still says "ah, the American
salute" when he comments on young men with their hands in their
pockets.

You can spot an American in Europe very easily. He's the one
spitting all the time. You can tell the southern Americans also, they
snort real loud to dig up as much phlem as the can before they shoot.

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:50:11 -0500, Cub Driver wrote:

I know a retired British colonel who still says "ah, the American
salute" when he comments on young men with their hands in their
pockets.

They're called "Airmen Mittens" thankyouverymuch!

-Jeff B.
yeff at erols dot com

The price of paid
later for a sloppy momma's boy military is now well documented. Sadly.

I'm not sure what time period you're talking about here, can you be more
specific because, in my opinion, the US has never had a "sloppy, mamma's boy
military"?

I've got news for you old man, the only differences between those serving from
1940-1945 and those serving today is today everyone (enlisted, NCO and officer)
is better educated. You think you and your B-26 crew had the market cornered on
dedication, bravery and determination, and that may be the biggest BS you
shovel on this news group.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

I'm not sure what time period you're talking about here, can you be more
specific because, in my opinion, the US has never had a "sloppy, mamma's boy
military"?

Mr. Kramer was referring to the 1st Marine Division that went from the
Kuwait border to east Baghdad in three weeks, "running and gunning" in
a manner that would have had Patton gibbering at the old folks' home.

You will find life more pleasant, and this newsgroup more manageable,
if you put Mr. Kramer in a kill-file.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

You will find life more pleasant, and this newsgroup more manageable,
if you put Mr. Kramer in a kill-file.


I don't kill file anyone, just choose to disregard their posts. In Kramer's
case, they're too comical and pathetic to ignore. I read his posts like someone
who's slowed down to look at a traffic accident.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

"ArtKramr" wrote

We were trained to iron discipline and obedience to orders.

There were very few enlisted troops with high school diplomas, and those
commissioned sometimes only had a couple of years, and no degree in WW#2.

The price of paid later for a sloppy momma's boy military is now well
documented. Sadly.

Not true. There were more people killed in WW#2 from accidents than
combat. The first thing that happened after Monty hit the beach in
Sicily, was a wave of US bombers out of Libya bombed the **** out of
them. I'd call that sloppy, and probably ****ing stupid.

"D. Strang" wrote in message
news:41Q%b.6171$m4.4277@okepread03...
"ArtKramr" wrote

We were trained to iron discipline and obedience to orders.

There were very few enlisted troops with high school diplomas, and those
commissioned sometimes only had a couple of years, and no degree in WW#2.

The price of paid later for a sloppy momma's boy military is now well
documented. Sadly.

Not true. There were more people killed in WW#2 from accidents than
combat. The first thing that happened after Monty hit the beach in
Sicily, was a wave of US bombers out of Libya bombed the **** out of
them. I'd call that sloppy, and probably ****ing stupid.

Hey, what about Malmedy? It was bad enough that Pieper pulled the machine
gunning of PW's, but you also had the USAAF (inluding one raid by Art's
beloved B-26's) hit the town not once but *twice* while it was in allied
hands! Strangely, this would have been during the time when Art has claimed
he was sent forward to man the trenches--now why would the USAAF have sent a
bombadier forward to do that instead of manning his aircraft? One wonders
how proficient ol' Art really was at his specialty if that was the case...

Brooks