First NASA form filed

You were OK to cross the runway without stopping, but it is also OK to ask
the controller if the coast is clear. Barring that, if there is more than
one pilot on board, it is good practice for each pilot to look to his side
and announce "clear left" or "clear right" before crossing either a runway
or a taxiway.

Many pilots and controllers would like to see the rules changed but the
downside is that requiring each aircraft to call the tower or announce on
CTAF before crossing every runway can increase the radio chatter
considerably. There are pilots here that go ballistic just because some
people use a couple extra words such as "with you." They are likely to be
intolerant of the increased radio traffic that would be generated by a
change of the rules for taxiing.

Paul,

Try out this AOPA Safety Foundation program it will answer all your
questions.
http://flash.aopa.org/asf/runwaySafety/

cb

"Peter Gottlieb" wrote in message
t...
"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
news
As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS
had called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was
over the hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line.
I think it's important to note that the controller had not told me to
hold short of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a
pretty flagrant violation.


Some people may not like me saying this but I do not agree with the rule
that you are cleared to cross all runways on your way to where you are
taxiing. I think the default should be that they must explicitly tell you
you are cleared to cross ANY runway and when you don't hear that you must
stop and ask (or call and ask as you are approaching it).

I am frequently given instructions which make me cross an active runway
without explicitly saying so and I always ask before doing so and STILL
look out for traffic on it before crossing.

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 23:39:12 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:

Re- read my post. That is what I said.


The post of yours to which I was responding was where you stated:

A trick here is, if you are given clearance to taxi to 31, but have to get
to the opposite side of 31 to get to the taxiway that will take you to the
departure end of 31, you may cross any other runways, but may not cross 31
without clearance.

I did not see in that post any indication that 31 was the "assigned
take-off runway".


--ron

BT,

Perhaps we could do our remedial training together?! :-)


BTIZ wrote:

I've always understood that when directed to taxi TO a runway, you are
granted permission to cross any other runway except the one you are taxing
TO... not when you are taxing from a runway to the RAMP.

BT

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote

A trick here is, if you are given clearance to taxi to 31, but have to
get
to the opposite side of 31 to get to the taxiway that will take you to
the
departure end of 31, you may cross any other runways, but may not cross
31
without clearance.

I did not see in that post any indication that 31 was the "assigned
take-off runway".


--ron

You are technically right, but picking at nits. Why else, in context with
the other posts subjects, would anyone not see that when I said, "given
clearance to taxi to 31", it was not the assigned runway.

Geez. You may now have the last word.
--
Jim in NC

On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 13:42:26 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:

You are technically right, but picking at nits. Why else, in context with
the other posts subjects, would anyone not see that when I said, "given
clearance to taxi to 31", it was not the assigned runway.

Geez. You may now have the last word.

Since you insist :-)

Your response seemed to be to my posting, which was dealing, as was the
OP's original message, with taxiing to some place on the field other than
the assigned takeoff runway.


--ron

Paul Folbrecht wrote:



As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS
had called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was
over the hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line.
I think it's important to note that the controller had not told me to
hold short of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a
pretty flagrant violation.

Actually it wouldn't have been. In order for you to be on the runway,
from the controllers point of view, you have to cross the white edge
line on the runway. The hold short lines don't determine anything for a
controller.



And, unless the controller deliberately wanted to make
me believe nothing was wrong for some reason, I believe she either
didn't notice I was over the hold (this intersection is pretty close to
the tower) or didn't care.

At my last facility, GFK, we didn't really know exactly where they were.
They serve no purpose to a controller.

Bob Gardner wrote:

At the "Communicating for Safety" conference put on by NATCA in Dallas, I
got the impression that there is a lot of controller sentiment in favor of
changing the AIM's laissez faire approach to crossing runways enroute to the
departure runway.

I have never heard that even brought up and would definitely not be in
favor of it.

I've heard both ways on this, and I do know for a fact that they matter
a lot to at least some controllers. Seems to me that they certainly
ought to - these are the official demarcations of the runway, right, and
*part* of the responsibility of controllers is to enforce the FARs (to
report violations of) at the facilities at which they work (not that I
want them to persecute pilots, of course).

Actually it wouldn't have been. In order for you to be on the runway,
from the controllers point of view, you have to cross the white edge
line on the runway. The hold short lines don't determine anything for a
controller.

Paul Folbrecht wrote:
Seems to me that they certainly
ought to - these are the official demarcations of the runway, right,

I am only interested in what happens within the white lines. You roll
over the hold short line by an airplane length it doesn't change what I
do one iota, as long as you remain outside the white lines.


and
*part* of the responsibility of controllers is to enforce the FARs

Enforcement is FSDO's job. The only time ATC helps out is if a loss of
separation occurs or some other near dangerous thing happens. If
controllers called FSDO everytime you bend an FAR there would be tens of
thousands of cases each year.